Erwin the X-type

  1. Melvyn Best Member

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    158
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Wouldn’t be surprised if the timing chain has stretched which has caused problems with the tensioner and guides?
     
  2. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Wight
    I shall be flippin annoyed if it is not a timing chain issue after all the diagnosis!
     
  3. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

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    Holy head scratcher batman!

    Get the cover off, no black or copper links on the chain at all. Put my camera on the crank sensor hole and lined up the teeth gap, dropped in the timing pin tool (a 13mm bar that goes the the crank sensor hole) that you use to lock the crank and set the timing.

    [​IMG]

    Looked at the front of the engine

    [​IMG]

    Those oval holes are supposed to be at the 6 o'clock position (or 12 o'clock if you need to go round again) for locking pins to be inserted. So unless I am missing something here that puts the timing out about 80 or 100degs out at the cam or 160/200 degs at the crank.
    - But that makes no sense either because the waveforms I took on the scope put it 18 degs out at the crank (assuming the known goods I got were more or less correct)

    Screenshot from 2019-11-07 14-56-09.png

    No way that I can see that timing has happened accidentally - unless a complete detachment of the DMF (as mentioned by @octo0072000 ) would affect the timing teeth position - but surely the timing teeth would need to be rigidly attached to the crank, not on the "soft" bit of the DMF.

    Open to any and all ideas on this one!
     
  4. Chillitt Member

    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Cirencester
    Given the loose bolts you found getting this far in, has someone recently found a deal breaker further in and just thrown it back together to get shot of it?
     
    Climber likes this.
  5. Climber

    Climber Member

    Messages:
    500
    Location:
    Hampshire UK
    Exactly what I was thinking. It does seem like you have just been retracing someone else's diagnostic efforts thus far.
     
  6. octo0072000

    octo0072000 Member

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    south yorks
    i know there are two flywheels for the mondeo both fit but only runs on one is the timing pin in the right hole as there are two holes in flywheel
    i would turn the engine over a few times to see if anything lines up first chain doesn't need to jump much on crank to put timing out
    other point is does it look like the gearbox has been out recently so DMF might have been changed
    see if you can find last owners out might help

    also looks like something has been rubbing on those two pins on the flywheel
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  7. Seadog

    Seadog Forum Supporter

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    NE London - UK
    Are the holes in the cam sprockets symmetrical? If so it looks like they've been bolted back one position out (ACW)
     
  8. Melvyn Best Member

    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Cambridge
     
  9. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,153
    Location:
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    @Melvyn Best - pulley is only for ancillaries, not timing related.

    @Seadog Not sure I don't think so but I will measure.

    @octo0072000 I thought the pin went in the tooth gap - is that not correct?
    If I rotate the crank so the cam sprocket holes are at 6 o'clock both can be pinned.
    I had wondered if possible to put a flywheel on wrong.
    Yep been putting out feelers to try and get some history on it, a friend of a friend might be the ex-owner.

    Someone also pointed out that my 18degs out at the crank could be 180 -/+18 at the crank to give the 160/200degs as shown on the sprockets.

    Because it is so far out I am suspect of my measuring methods!
     
  10. octo0072000

    octo0072000 Member

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    Location:
    south yorks
    not sure about the tooth gap will it fit in more than one place?
    just turn the engine over appox four times see if it all lines up or not
    cam chains jump if tow started due to cam tensioner being hydraulic happens a lot on the transits it's drop the clutch in second at speed that does it
     
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  11. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,153
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    Nope nothing lines up! The tooth gap was logical I thought - but I am trying to find out if that is correct as it may not be - and may give me a much more sensible answer as I was just expecting it to be 1 crank tooth out (18 degrees as per scope).
    I have seen a vid on where to line up the chain end of the crank to get an approximation for flywheel so I will do that again tomorrow and look for something else other than the gap!
     
    Parm likes this.
  12. m_c Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    East Lothian
    Flywheel can't go on wrong, but you can fit the wrong flywheel, but with the wrong flywheel it wouldn't start at all.

    I don't think that's the correct timing point on the flywheel. Some engines needed a stepped timing pin, that located in a slot machined in the flywheel, not the inductor teeth. I also a feeling in cars, they may have used a different timing position all together.

    They also stopped coloured links on the chain. They were only any good for initial timing, as it took well over a hundred crank revolutions to get them to line up again.

    Also, the crank sensor has been pushed in too far, unless there is something floating around the bell housing that shouldn't be, as the teeth shouldn't be rubbing on anything.
    To adjust, turn the flywheel until a tooth is central in the crank sensor hole, push the sensor in until it touches, then back out about a millimetre. However usually too far in would allow the engine to start, but it wouldn't rev above a couple thousand, as the sensor signal became saturated..
     
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  13. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

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  14. Melvyn Best Member

    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Cambridge
    What I meant in my reply is the crankshaft sprocket may not be keyed to the crank like a lot of modern engines BUT relies on the crankshaft pulley center bolt being tight enough to clamp the sprocket . A loose bolt will then allow the sprocket to rotate around the crank thus putting the timing out which may be why the flywheel locking pin cannot be put in when the cam pins can . I know that the Duratec petrol engines use this method but I can’t remember if the diesel units do?
     
  15. m_c Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    East Lothian
    The crank sprocket on the diesels is held in place by a bolt, then the whole lot gets sandwiched together with the three crank pulley bolts (that's provided the car engine has a similar setup to the van engines..)
     
  16. octo0072000

    octo0072000 Member

    Messages:
    5,242
    Location:
    south yorks
  17. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,153
    Location:
    Wight
    Thanks, got that in the manual, the issue is what the pin (3) goes into. I put in in the teeth gap as used by the crank sensor. Apparently not where it is supposed to go. No marks on the chain either annoyingly.
     
    octo0072000 likes this.
  18. octo0072000

    octo0072000 Member

    Messages:
    5,242
    Location:
    south yorks
    supposed to it in the crank sensor hole
    Remove crankshaft position (CKP) sensor. Fit flywheel locking tool [3
     
  19. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,153
    Location:
    Wight
    Right, hmmm, yes..
    After much faf, the crank timing pin/locking tool went into the correct but not-very-obvious slot for it, and... it all pretty much lines up. I was not able to quite put the 6mm pins through the sprockets but is seems very close (even with the bolts loosened), certainly no more than a degree as I can get a 5mm pin in at a slight angle.

    When I rotate the engine by hand there is definitely a 60 degree or so section that is much more difficult to turn - the injectors are out so its not compression. Oil pump maybe?

    So the scope says timing is probably out, but physically does not appear to be. [​IMG] Scope also says low compression on one cylinder that points to timing.

    The valve positions look correct having measured the height of the springs - assuming 1 is supposed to be 50degs BTDC on its compression stroke

    Not decided on the way forward but I want to take a look at an anomaly with the injector firing pattern that I had initially dismissed as I was fudging the measurement a bit.

    I can see that chain stretch might cause some running issues under load, but not a no start
     
  20. HopefullySoon

    HopefullySoon Member

    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Heywood
    I think in the Sherlock Holmes series .....

    Moriarty is planning the final chess moves into " The Reichenbach Falls " ......

    I do like a Conan Doyle book / analogy .

    Please investigate further ......:hug:
     
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