Erwin the X-type

  1. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    IIRC the timing has to be out 2 notches on the flywheel before the ECU will fail to synchronise, and it's more likely to cause a non-start, than issues once started.

    The engine will likely be tighter to turn as the pistons go through the mid-stroke due to leverage angles.

    I wouldn't read too much into the scope traces. I'd be far more concerned about live data, to see what the ECU is seeing and attempting to do, rather than scope traces. For reference, this is the kind of thing I deal with on a regular basis, and I'm lucky if I dig the oscilloscope out it's box more than a couple times a year, and even then, the scope is just to prove what I already suspect. Which ironically, is normally issues surrounding crank sensors!

    However, getting live data requires good diagnostic kit.
    I'd be going back to basics, like is the engine drawing in air?
    Is the ECU seeing the engine draw in air?
    Is the inlet manifold pressure plausible (i.e. not showing a vacuum during cranking).

    The fact you mentioned earlier the engine stopped with a bang, is the intercooler free from oil?
    (which would show up in live data as a vacuum being formed in the inlet manifold during cranking)
    It could be the turbo has failed, the engine's ran off on the oil, and would quite easily explain the compression/misfire issues (ran away engines can result in melted pistons), why it stopped with a bang (enough oil got sucked in to hydraulic lock the engine, but would drain out after being sat for a while), and why it now won't start (oil in the intercooler can be enough to stop air being drawn in, and as the ECU doesn't see air being drawn in, it doesn't inject fuel).
     
  2. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
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    2 notches would be 12 degs at crank and 6 degs at cam - it is nowhere near that much.

    2019-11-08 11.28.19.jpg


    I did look at live data and nothing looked out of place, all temps, MAF etc, it is not setting any codes.
    I tested the air flow with a can of Easystart at the filter - as it runs on that (and gets up to idle speed as shown by the turbo actuator opening) I am assuming that I have enough air flow in and out. The Intake and EGR are clean.
    The ECU seems to be commanding the injectors to fire and they are now coded and not leaking back. Fuel pressure builds ok. I swapped the cam and crank sensors as they were cheap and easy.

    Presently the only anomalies are
    - It doesn't start!
    - the odd injector/crank trace I got (and dismissed as being too odd and a measurement error)
    - the cam/crank timing showing the timing to be out - but that was based on the known good traces being accurate.
    - low compression in one cylinder during crank.
     
  3. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Hmm so strange things afoot!
    Took the tensioner and chain off today (weather has not been good enough!), now there is no way the chain was coming off without taking the sprockets off (manual says to loosen the bolts anyway), when I did I saw that the pin slots were not actually aligned with the pin holes but just beside them, and when the chain tension was released they were even further out. So when I replaced the chain those links should be at 12 o'clock
    2019-11-17 13.43.41.jpg

    2019-11-17 13.20.46.jpg


    I can't see that the cams can turn by themselves (one drives a pump off the other end!) and the crank is still locked. - Checked and double checked that the crank pin seems to be correctly located also the crank front end lines up where it should.

    So time for bravery and I am going to turn the camshafts independent of the crank so they can be pinned properly. Everything will then line up with what the manual says. As everything else I have done has pointed to timing I feel reasonably confident but replacing a belt/chain is one thing, changing the timing is a bit scary!
     
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  4. Melvyn Best Member

    Messages:
    428
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Pressure from the valve springs can cause cams to rotate if they are not locked in position. You may be able to rotate the crank backwards slightly to lower the pistons down the bore a few mm which would allow to cams to be retimed , then slowly rotate the crank until the timing pin can be reinstalled. There is probably another plated link on the chain, that should align with a mark on the crank sprocket ?
     
  5. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Thanks Melvyn - you are of course correct that the cams did turn by themselves having been left a week! I removed the sprockets, lined up the cams with the holes, pinned them then re-installed the sprockets and chain. Tightened rotated twice and re-checked all seems good (links did not line up again but I understand that is normal)
    Oddly there is not a plated link for the crank sprocket, or even a mark (though there is now as I painted one!).

    However - the tensioner is of this type (sorry for giant pic!)
    [​IMG]
    However it would not retract much further than in than shown in this image ^ - as in it was locked solid against something internal. I had not expected it to retract at all unless the black P was lifted - but it did, 80% of the way by hand, I had to take it off the car like that but it still would not retract further even on the bench.
    I levered up the black P retainer plate and wiggled it a bit, there was a click and a bit of metal appeared under under it, the plate no longer sits flush and it looks "wrong" to me - but it seems to work fine as it could be retracted and pinned and once unpinned works over it's full range.
    Anyone have experience of these as all images seem to be of a different type.
    So I don't know if it was broken but now fixed or broken and now more broken but working! Looking at it I think it should not be able to be retracted except by lifting the P plate, re-installed but having second thoughts now I look in close up.

    2019-11-17 15.34.482.jpg

    EDIT For the Ford transit running a similar engine this tensioner seems to have been superseded by the type I see in the manual due to issues with tension during a cold start (ie no oil pressure)
     
  6. Seadog

    Seadog Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    6,273
    Location:
    NE London - UK
    Surely there should be no retraction until the clip is lifted, allowing the pawl to disengage? OK, there may be a very small amount, roughly the equivalent of one tooth, but that's it. Or am I misunderstanding how it's meant to work?
     
  7. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    The official line is the tensioners are one use only. Once it has been fitted, and the pin pulled, you shouldn't reset them.

    If the piston has come out too far, it allows the pawl to drop in behind the piston, which by the sounds of it, is what could have happened.

    The tensioners have always been ratchet types, as they rely on the ratchet holding tension until oil pressure builds to maintain tension. I'd guess any supersession is likely to be relatively minor.


    Unless Ford changed things, you don't need to worry about valves hitting pistons with the crank locked. Engine timing is done well away from TDC (IIRC the crank pin locks things at 52mm BTDC - on early engines, the crank sensor bracket was mounted on slots, so if any idiot loosened the bracket, or tried using the locking pin to hold things while slackening crank pulley bolts, you entered a world of pain to get the bracket set correctly again).
     
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  8. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    @m_c Brilliant! thanks for that insight, sounds like the tensioner has been all the way out then at sometime in the past as there was definitely something jamming it before I took it off.
    Looking at it I guess the pawl slides in a slot (hence the P shape) so the piston can't go backwards but can go forwards a few notches, once it exceeds those few notches it re-sets the furthest back position. It also appears that the pawl - (now retrieved from behind the piston) is twisted on mine so not sitting flush.

    2019-11-17 15.34.483.jpg

    Would I be right in thinking that as the pawl had dropped behind the piston the tensioner was basically useless on a cold start.
     
  9. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    The piston has most likely popped out and the pawl dropped in when you've removed the chain.
    For it to drop in when fitted, would need the chain and the guides to be extremely worn.

    Word of caution, if you do fit a new chain kit, don't buy it from Euro Car Parts. Out of about 30 kits we fitted to transits in our workshop, two needed new engines within 10k, and about 10 needed the kits replaced again within a year, with the minimum record being under 5k before failure, all due to guide and chain wear. ECP tried to tell us it was because we had used the wrong oil. As my boss replied, if we're using the wrong oil, how come the original ford stuff lasted 100k with minimal wear, yet your kits are f***ed within 10k?
     
  10. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Didn't pop out when I did it, I tried to compress the tensioner to lock it (as per the manual) and it was solid for the last part before I touched the chain. There was an after-market chain on there as it had no coloured links , so again following someone else!
    I replaced with a genuine Jag/Ford chain (old stock) so I suspect it must of happened at the last replacement.

    The tensioner plate was not worn at all. Thanks for the ECP heads up!
     
  11. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    The only chains with coloured links I've ever seen, were on the original training course for the Transit 2000.

    I have never seen one since, as I think Ford realised there was no point to the coloured links, as you timed everything by pins anyway, and they only lined up once every hundred and something crank rotations. Certainly every new ford chain I've ever fitted, has never had coloured links.
     
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  12. Seadog

    Seadog Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    6,273
    Location:
    NE London - UK

    That's exactly what I was thinking. The idea of having a hunting "drive chain", be it chain or gear, is not new. It spreads wear across the components.
     
  13. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Started to button this back up today, whipped the tensioner off and fixed it easily, tested and performed how it should on the bench.

    2019-11-18 10.17.39.jpg

    To put the timing cover on, the manual says to use 2 people and a special tool to align the crankshaft seal (mounted in the cover) as you have 5 mins before the sealant goes off.
    As I had neither of these I changed the crank seal before I put it on and used the mounting sleeve that comes with the new seal as the positioner and cut some 50mm bits of threaded bar for the top bolts so I could hang it in the right position. Slid it all into place and it worked a treat.

    2019-11-18 14.48.56.jpg
    The other special tool I didn't have was to de-tension the auxiliary belt so I could bolt up the crank pulley - this was easily got around by initially bolting up with just one of the three crank bolts then using a socket in an empty bolt hole and a long screwdriver to rotate the pulley into position and put in the other bolt.
    So far so good.
    Not sure if it will fix it as the timing was not visually out (despite the 'scope reading) but the chain tensioner was a disaster waiting to happen - as were the loose alternator bolts, loose idler pulley, loose ...
     
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  14. jpmillermatic

    jpmillermatic Member

    Messages:
    971
    USA-NY
    I only know from the woes VW owners had with cam chain tensioners failing, worn cam chains, ect and I am happy to hear you decided to take care of this issue now. using the right parts is imperative. cheapo stuff will fail as stated above!

    I have another 10,000 miles to go before having to do the timing belt on my passat, and will be doing the cam chain and tensioner at the same time...I already have the parts.

    keep us updated!

    jP
     
  15. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    These don't have an in tank pump so you need to prime the fuel system - pulling fuel all the way from the tank, if you take it apart. I had previously put a new Bosch filter in it so I bought a fuel priming pipe+quick clips+bulb - nicely made with quality bit - though a bit pricey,https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Die...168271?hash=item3654c0fecf:g:2xoAAOSwG8ldwBOn

    The quick clips fit the filter in/out, now for the fun bit..

    I clipped the pump between the filter and the outlet hose to HP pump so I could suck fuel into the filter and flush the outlet hose before re-connecting - oops, lots of air coming through along with the diesel.
    Disconnected and blocked the filter return (from injectors) opening - still air
    Fearing needing a tank drop I connected the hand pump between the fuel tank pipe and the filter (reversing the clips on the pump) and re-connected he outlet - no air coming from tank, but not able to get the bulb firm and still air getting in the filter when cranking as could be seen by a big bubble on filter side of the clear pipe the . WTH?
    Took the full filter completely out of the car, clipped the pump to the outlet, blocked the inlet and return... and sucked the diesel and lots of air out of the supposedly sealed canister ?!? No leaks out from the canister and the drain was tight.

    Long story short it turned out to be the water drain rubber washer on the filter, even though it was tight, it was acting like a one way valve letting in loads of air but not leaking fuel out! Tightened it down really, really hard and the canister sealed - which is good as I thought I was going mad :doh:

    Adding shiny new broken things to your already broken car is not helpful for diagnosis - and on a working car this would stop it running as the filter is under negative pressure, you would not see it priming in the normal way on the tank side of the filter either.

    Still not getting a completely firm bulb though so that points to an actual issue .. probably...
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  16. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Out with the 'scope again this morning, as a tech from another forum suggested I look at Inj 1 firing against Fuel rail pressure.
    Yesterday I had looked at each individual injector against the crank sensor and I can see the engine speed up when Cly 2 fired, so as far as I can see all injectors are getting a firing signal but only Cyl 2 is going bang.

    Then look at this from this morning, I split the time between cyl 1 firing' s (in blue) with vertical dotted lines, to give the firing times of the other injectors and labelled in firing order, Cyl 2 is the only one to cause a drop in fuel rail pressure (red below) so it looks like that is the only one actually passing fuel. Which points to 3 blocked (already swapped) injectors which points to a disintegrating fuel pump - despite no other visible evidence.

    That's today's theory anyway!

    injector + FRP 2.JPG
     
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  17. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    What's the fuel pressure like when cranking in live data?

    Generally a disintegrating pump will cause injectors to stick open, and fuel pressure not to build.
    If fuel pressure isn't building high enough, it could just be that injector 2 happens to be able to operate at a lower pressure.
     
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  18. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Last time I scanned it it was OK - average around 320bar if I remember correctly, it will not fire the injectors below about 200 bar. Around 1.3v at idle is normal apparently.
     
  19. qwakers Member

    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    cornwall, united kingdom
    move injector 2 to another cylinder and retest, is possible the injector wiring loom is knackered and 2 is the only one getting a signal.....
     
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  20. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    All injectors are getting a signal and from their waveforms they are actuating can see the solenoid "bounce". I current tested all of them yesterday against the crank signal. - I wish that were the issue I could have fixed it by now!
     
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