Erwin the X-type

  1. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    More (not very) pretty pictures. I disconnected the High pressure regulating valve (commonly called the IMV) and all the injectors. This puts the pump in Max pressure mode. That should be much nearer to 5V

    Pump max Jag.jpg

    Live data said max 1,153 Bar. Pretty sure that should be 1,600 ish.
    Looks like the pump is breaking up inside, despite no other evidence. Time to pull it apart and look for bits...
     
    Parm likes this.
  2. Parm

    Parm Temporarily operating from the Devon Annex

    Messages:
    11,821
    Location:
    Towcester

    What you going to do if you fix/change the fuel pump and it all works?
     
  3. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    It's commonly called a IMV, because it is an inlet metering valve (or suction control valve, depending on who's information you happen to be reading). These system regulate the fuel pressure by controlling how much fuel enters the pump, not by regulating the high pressure.

    That fuel pressure is more than enough for the vehicle to run, and I wouldn't expect it to hit max pressure at cranking speed anyway. Even with a good pump and a failed/disconnected IMV, it normally takes a couple thousand RPM for the fuel pressure to get high enough to cause the fixed pressure relief valve to open.
     
  4. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Thanks @m_c had not thought about the way the valve works.
    - Agree with you there is plenty of pressure at crank speed to run the car, this was really about seeing if the pump is dead - I am hopefully going to get access to a full Delphi pump test kit next few days, but want to pull the IMV out to check for swarf first.
    Other techs are pretty convinced it is a swarf problem.
    Logically from the crank/injector traces (and sound) it very much looks like only one cylinder is going bang, from the injector/FRP trace it looks like the same cyl is the only one actually passing fuel. Which appears to mean that as it drove to the dealers, then started dying, then died - something killed the injectors.

    Always open to suggestions as to any other direction to take as running out of ideas!

    @Parm probably drive it for a bit, get bored and buy another project! - Though I have a big steel boat to finish as well..
     
    Parm likes this.
  5. Leecapri83 Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    Essex
    Having learnt from bitter experience in the summer, mine required a higher pressure to start rather than run.
    With some assistance from easy start it would run all day although over the course of approx. 10 days ended up refusing to start.
    Easy enough fix in the end but went down a lot of rabbit holes including but not limited to wiring, injectors and various sensors.
    Good luck, you will figure it out.
     
  6. Turbo Member

    Messages:
    3,549
    Location:
    Fermanagh, Northern Ireland
    Have you tried cranking it with the injector fuel pipes disconnected & put into separate jam jars. That would let you see if fuel is getting to the injectors.

    Unless of course it's a common rail system, then ignore this!;)
     
  7. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Thanks, @Turbo but yes it is common rail.
    The IMV T25 screws are supposed to be 7.5nm (ie about what you can apply with a firm screwdriver) - feels like they were put in with a windy gun! Broken both ends of my T25 L tool. Need to pull pipes to get a socket in there so going to drain the common rail for fuel examination while I am at it.

    @m_c does make me think that although there is pressure there may not be flow if the IMV is blocked - though the pressure regulator vs injector wave seems to come back up to pressure long (well 20ms) before the next injector fires.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  8. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    If the IMV is blocked, you wouldn't get any pressure.
     
  9. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    So the bad news is in - Drained the rail into a black spray can lid and shone a torch in - apparently the only real way to check as in a jar it looks nice and clean, and the bad news is

    2019-11-27 15.18.37.jpg

    Lots of shiny little bits of fuel pump. :(

    Need to look at the costs (and the sills) and see if it is worth saving. As the injectors will be just clogged and not worn they might be cleanable - though I might also be able to pick up some low cost new injectors. - The pump is the question
     
  10. Wozzaaah

    Wozzaaah The wizard of woz Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,842
    Wiltshire, UK
    At least you now have an answer.
    I can't be the only member who's been rooting for you to post a positive reply.
    Regardless of the final outcome it's been an interesting thread to follow. :thumbup:
     
    Dieselkid 63, garethp, stuvy and 7 others like this.
  11. Parm

    Parm Temporarily operating from the Devon Annex

    Messages:
    11,821
    Location:
    Towcester
    Great determination Paul. I would have given up a very long time ago

    This is now sorted. I have your next project ready and waiting for you
     
    stuvy likes this.
  12. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
     
    eSCHEn and Parm like this.
  13. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Well the maths results are in.

    Getting all the parts used and compromising by cleaning out and blowing out with the air gun/atomiser everything up to the filter (ie tank and lines) and replacing everything after that keeps the parts cost reasonable. Will also whack a couple of neodymium magnets round the filter as well.

    Just had a good look and a tap around the sills, I have one hole to patch with and the rest looks ok with the snake cam.

    2019-11-28 10.32.39.jpg 2019-11-28 10.46.55.jpg

    If I scrap this one I will only have to buy another one as I am actually looking forward to driving a Jag now. Since they are 1.5-2k I have a bit of budget as I bought it for not much more than scrap money and have £72 of parts in it so far. Plus, I am stubborn!
     
    Dieselkid 63, stuvy, Turbo and 7 others like this.
  14. Rusty

    Rusty Member

    Messages:
    595
    South West
    Can’t understand why you were messing with timing and timing chains etc when the car was previously running and started when you squirted easy start into the intake, it points to fuel starvation surely :dontknow: well done for not giving up on it though :cool:
     
    stuvy and Parm like this.
  15. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    @Rusty Good question - but hindsight is 20/20. :laughing:

    The process was pretty logical as there was not one single problem but multiple issues mostly caused by previous fixes.
    It was previously running very, very badly - I only heard it run at the dealer, yes it would also run equally badly on easy start, but not start.
    So either no fuel or fuel at the wrong time or enough compression for ES but not diesel.

    To start, visual checks - the usual loose pipes/egr issues, stuck turbo actuator, fuel in the tank. I found the Crank sensor not secured and cracked. Fixed but no start. No codes showing

    1st check - Fuel flow? New filter is easiest and prudent. No start

    2nd check - injectors firing = no, why ? - Not enough rail pressure due to huge injector leak off so ECU not commanding. Swapped injectors, now have fuel pressure so injectors firing but still. No Start

    3rd check - relative compression - slightly down on 1 cylinder (- this was probably one of the injectors that were not tight prior to above exchange)

    4th check - Are the injectors firing at the right time ? Check timing Crank vs Cam, two nearest "known goods" for this model engine put timing 1 tooth/20 degs off at crank - these "known goods" not being correct for exactly this car were the reason I went down the timing route. Though it was a data error it is a good job I did as the tensioner was badly installed, the alternator bolts were loose, the idler was about to fall off and the crank pulley bolts were at about 50nm.

    5th check - scope the rail pressure - dropping out due to air ingress from faulty new fuel filter. Fixed.

    6th check - scope Injector Vs rail pressure - This is when I saw that only Cyl 2 firing was causing a rail pressure drop, which led me to wonder how 3 out of 4 replaced injectors could be not passing fuel.

    7th - Swarf test = bad pump.

    There is a triage of stuff likely to go wrong and the HP Pump failing is so far down it is not even mentioned in the workshop manual as a possibility!
    I am worried that there is other stuff that has been messed with that I won't discover until I get the engine started !:o
     
    slim_boy_fat and Parm like this.
  16. Rusty

    Rusty Member

    Messages:
    595
    South West
    You seem to have covered most things WS :thumbup: the way I see it is at least it did “run” to some degree on easy start so it should start and run (maybe badly) if it’s getting fuel , I think I would firstly remove whatever fuel is in the tank,replace with fresh fuel, change the fuel filter in case there is contaminated fuel in the system, prime the system up to the injectors , ‘crack off’ the injectors to bleed any air and ensure injectors are receiving fuel.
    Unlike petrol vehicles Diesel engines don’t require a spark to run , so good fuel compressed at the right time you should get a ‘bang’ unless you have an immobiliser problem ! which is designed to kill the fuel pump which could explain why it ran on easy start but not run on it’s own fuel, is it getting any ?
     
    stuvy likes this.
  17. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Crikey what a job getting the fuel pump out. Technically it's only 7 bolts, but the amount of alignment (that you can not see) and lack of space to work is a nightmare! I made a removal tool by welding a nut to a chopped off T45 - but by experiment and measuring it had to be 56-58mm long as any shorter and it would not reach and any longer it fouled the body work.

    Anyway after much swearing and blood the front bits are out.

    2019-11-29 13.59.38.jpg

    This metal disc (ebay special tool!) clamps on to the timing cover, and the pins stop the sprocket from dropping. First align the holes in the sprocket with the pump Torx heads behind it (with a snake cam!), then align the disc with the holes in the sprocket, then pin the lot, removing one at a time to get to the Torx heads. Bit tight as you can see - and no, that is the ABS pump partly in the way and I'm not moving it!

    2019-11-29 15.52.05.jpg

    Out at last

    2019-11-30 13.19.46.jpg

    All junk, more to come!
     
    slim_boy_fat, eSCHEn and stuvy like this.
  18. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    So I might get away with not replacing the tank, but apparently the tank sender will be un-cleanable so Hoping the Mondeo estate tank is compatible.
     
  19. RWD3M

    RWD3M Member

    Messages:
    869
    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Mate,

    If you fancy a trip my way I have a 2.2d that is heading (eventually) for the scrapman. There may some parts you can use?
     
  20. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Ahh yes I bought your towbar ...it's waiting patiently for the car to work.

    That might be an idea as I think everything is compatible with the 2.2 - possibly not the tank as yours is not an estate.. I'll PM you.
     
Advertisements