Erwin the X-type

  1. Melvyn Best Member

    Messages:
    428
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Have you checked to see if the injectors are actually being activated? You should be able to check using an oscilloscope, that would potentially eliminate the ECU,CPS and associated wiring?
     
  2. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Thanks @HopefullySoon but I think you missed that I am doing this for entertainment -I bought it as a puzzle to be solved!:laughing: - the fact it turned out to be more of a head scratcher than I thought is great! - CEL... but no codes and no start :thumbup:

    The thread has 3000+ views so it must be keeping someone else entertained too (that or y'all need to get out more!)

    I am learning lots - inc. how to use an oscilloscope for auto diagnosis (along with all the common Jag X-type faults... that it does not seem to have!). Yes I could tear it apart further to check things, but I already know how to do that.
    The parts cannon has already been fired at it by previous owner/car dealer with 5 replacement injectors (- even re-furbs are £100 each). I did spend less than a tenner each on a crank+cam sensors and a fuel filter, admittedly...
    If it turns out to be something very serious (like a hole in a piston) then I take a few bits off to put on ebay and call the scrap man - it weighs 1.5T after all.

    As for wiring -well this was my last project :whistle:

    2018-05-06 18.11.51.jpg
     
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  3. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    @Melvyn Best yep that's early on the list for the new 'scope. I am assuming they are from the fuel pressure trace on my diag tool, and the now stumbling firing I am getting since coding the injectors.
    Though reading @premmington 's ever useful site (bottom of this page ) I wonder if I can use a compass to see the injectors firing!
     
  4. Chillitt Member

    Messages:
    1,038
    Location:
    Cirencester
    This sort of thing is generally only stressful if its your only transport, or you have your life savings invested in it. This one looks like the mechanics equivalent of a good whodunnit novel. Have fun! :D
     
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  5. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Exactly ! :thumbup:
    Plus I have the wife's Pug and my SAAB for transport (gratuitous pic...)

    2018-09-25 11.08.06.jpg
     
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  6. HopefullySoon

    HopefullySoon Member

    Messages:
    706
    Location:
    Heywood
    Investigate away !

    I've seen a few of these for sale with a similar fault .

    My 3.0 petrol spun a crank bearing so that killed that .

    Was tempted to buy one but now seeing yours in glad I didn't .....

    I now consider the car ' Moriaty ' to your 'Sherlock Holmes'
     
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  7. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Now the sun is out and I got a few hours today to play with the new oscilloscope.
    Did a bunch of tests (injector, compression etc) and managed to avoid letting the smoke out of it. The most useful one was a Cam/Crank sensor comparison.

    This is the one I took
    Crank - Inductive sensor on a 58 toothed wheel (behind the flywheel) with a missing tooth two missing teeth, 50degs BTDC according to the manual - Blue
    Cam - Hall sensor on a gapped disk on the intake cam - -Red

    Screenshot from 2019-10-27 16-33-45.png

    Close up of the cam trigger vs the crank wheel - the crank sensor detects missing teeth on the clutch end of the engine.

    Jag (non start ) Cam Crank 1.png

    I don't get access to the Picoscope waveform library but found a supposed known good waveform of the 2.0l Duratorq - this one is a lower power version though as mine is 128hp (see label in the pic), the cam phase is 10 teeth wide vs 11 on mine, but importantly finishes 8 teeth before the gap and mine is 11 teeth, at 360degs/60 teeth =6 degs that's 18degs timing difference ! [EDIT] actually I think 9 degs as 1:2 crank to cam rotation

    Duratorq good timing.png

    If anyone has access to or has a proper known good wave form for this engine I would be very grateful - before I pull the cover off.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  8. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    @premmington 's idea of a compass for cheap diagnostics - initial move when the ignition is switched on then a good twitch - I assume as the injector gets a signal during cranking :thumbup:



    - probably better with a less damped compass - I might just drill a hole in it.

    What I don't understand is when I put the crank sensor and Injector 1 on the 'scope I see an injector fire every rotation :dontknow: Still learning!
     
  9. RWD3M

    RWD3M Member

    Messages:
    869
    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Still watching intently!

    Any chance this could be the cause of the problem though?

    Richard,
     
  10. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    No, it's standard. 58 teeth and 2 spaces so 60 per single crank revolution. The two teeth space is what the inductive sensor notices - and where you shove the crank locking pin.

    I got another image of a similar - but again not identical engine, and again that confirms 18degs out at the crank, from pics of spares it looks like there are 20 teeth on the crank sprocket so that makes it 1 jump.

    Pulled the injectors and cam cover, no broken bolts on the caps. Pulled the Right drive wheel to rotate the engine by hand and the low compression is definitely there as shown on the relative compression test.

    relative compression test Jag.png

    Now pretty convinced the front cover needs to come off, just need some none raining and daylight time to do it.

    My only concern is the odd result with the injectors, - my current clamp has now arrived but too late as the engine is already apart!
    Will see in the next few days, got a new oil seal for the cover on order and figured out how to avoid using the special tool to tension the belt.
     
  11. m_c Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    East Lothian
    That does sound like the timing has jumped. Often on marginal timing cases, the timing will synchronise long enough for the ECU to fire one or two injectors, then go out of synchronisation and the ECU will stop firing injectors, then synchronise again, and so on.
    On decent diagnostic kit, you would get a datalist item saying if the Crank/Cam were synchronised correctly (it often just listed as 'Sync' on Ford diag kit), that you can check while cranking.

    I would however be concerned about erratic fuel rail pressure. It should remain relatively stable.
    Primary diagnostics for non-start common rail diesles are-
    Check it sounds like it's got compression while cranking.
    Check there are no obvious faults (aka immobiliser light not doing what it should)
    Check fuel rail pressure (CR injectors typically need a minimum of 100-150bar to operate)
    Check cam/crank sync.
    Check it's drawing air in (faulty MAF sensor showing no air flow, can cause no fuel to be injected - it'll also highlight a stuck open EGR).
    Check it's actually got diesel in it.

    If all those pass, then you've missed something, so start at the top again.

    It's been a long time since I've worked on that version of the engine, but if it's got the old Delphi high pressure pumps, they were notoriously bad (Delphi themselves had shelves full of them, that had been rebuilt by authorised repairers that just would not work, and Delphi would just send a factory refurb as it wasn't worth their effort to figure out why they wouldn't work), but that wouldn't cause a misfire.
    Injectors were known to fail. Even though Ford preferred Delphi high pressure pumps during that era, they'd still often have Denso or Bosch injectors fitted.
    The engine should still start and run, even if the injectors are not coded correctly. It might knock/bang/rattle/hesitate, but it should still run.
     
  12. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Thanks @m_c I did the diesel check first as the ECU will simulate a misfire if less than 4L! Yes it's the Delphi HP pump with Delphi injectors.

    Fuel pressure sensor looks about right, 1.3v is OK

    Fuel Pressure.png
     
  13. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    This is what I was getting on the injector 1 with a 20x attenuator

    injector + Crank .JPG

    Pulse form looks OK but every 360 ?? Also the voltage is wrong - I assume I forgot to set the 20X in the software - though I have noticed since that it can take a couple of goes to get the probe type to "stick"

    Oh and if you have access to any waveforms....
     
  14. RWD3M

    RWD3M Member

    Messages:
    869
    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Ah, got it.

    :thumbup:
     
  15. RWD3M

    RWD3M Member

    Messages:
    869
    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    I'd have to take you (or rather Jaguar/Ford) to task on that one. My 2.2d gave me no warning at all before running out of fuel on the M4!!!

    Yes I know, I should have filled up way before it indicated a range of 11 miles but hey ho! :dontknow:
     
  16. octo0072000

    octo0072000 Member

    Messages:
    5,345
    Location:
    south yorks
    Nothing has been said about the dual mass flywheel yet
    that could account for the timing being out have you checked by using the locking pins to lock crank and cams?
     
  17. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Nope, need to get the front of the engine off first, which is a few hours job. that I need daylight and not raining for...
    Not sure how the DMF would affect timing ?

    @RWD3M heard that from others too, but I did find it in the manual! Did it trash the fuel pump?
     
  18. RWD3M

    RWD3M Member

    Messages:
    869
    Location:
    Wiltshire, UK
    Yeah, that's where I read it too. Absolutely no harm done though, other than to my ego!

    It was my company car at the time and whilst I managed to keep it quiet from my colleagues at work I didn't half get some stick from the guys at Jaguar who came out to recover it!!!
     
  19. octo0072000

    octo0072000 Member

    Messages:
    5,345
    Location:
    south yorks
    depends on what side timing marks are
     
  20. Wightsparks

    Wightsparks Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    1,368
    Location:
    Wight
    Got a couple of hours on this today before the rain arrived !

    Getting the alternator off was easy as the bolts were finger tight, the centre bolts for tensioner and the tensioner idler were also backed out with about 3 threads left, and the crank pulley bolts were suspiciously easy to undo :o. Has a new accessory belt and tensioner on it though...

    Need to remove the engine mount, cant support the engine on the sump as it's plastic so will probably just jack up under the gearbox case or fabricate a support loop for the lifting point which is where the cover hook is

    2019-11-06 13.32.23.jpg
     
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