UK towing

[normspanners]

The only time you dont need a cpc is if its for personal use such as horse boxes vintage lorrys or motorracing transport the fact you say its for work implies you need a cpc

not always as you can see from my post above re scaffolders etc, I drove a truck to nec for somebody and checked with the ministry because it was our exhibition stuff that I was transporting unloading and setting up it was ok, didnt need the cpc. What the hell difference it makes is beyond me, some of it is just making rules for rules sake IMHO.

 

[Justme]

The definition for Operators licences used for Hire or reward is as follows:-

where you are carrying
other people’s goods for hire or reward (e.g. working as a courier, removal firm or other
freight transport business)

What is not Hire or Reward
You are NOT usually operating for Hire or Reward when you carry goods you own or goods
you have used or will use in the course of your business.

Examples
In each of the following examples a Van below 3,500 kgs (3.5t) and a small trailer is used to
transport a mini-digger from a depot to a work site. The gross plated weights of vehicle and
trailer when combined exceed 3.5t. These examples cover most circumstances, however
there are more than these simple examples so if you are in any doubt please contact VOSA
enquiries.
Example 1 - The digger is owned by you, the user of the vehicle. You use the digger on the
site. This transport is done on your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 2 - The digger is rented by you, the user of the vehicle. You use the digger on the
site. This transport is done on your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 3 - The digger is rented by you, the owner of the digger is the user of the vehicle
(they deliver to site for you to use). You use the digger on the site. This transport is done on
the "own account" of the digger renting company and they do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 4 - The digger is owned by the building company, you collect it from building
company’s depot and bring to site. You use the digger on the site. This transport is done on
your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 5 - The digger is owned by the building company, having used the digger you take it
from one site to another site (where the digger is stored). This transport is done on your own
account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 6 - The digger is not owned by you, you collect it from a depot and deposit it at a site
where another company uses it. If you are rewarded for this work in any way (payment or in
kind) this is hire or reward, you have not undertaken this work on your own account, you have
made a pure freight journey – and you will therefore need an operator’s licence.

It would be very difficult for them to use a different definition of "hire or reward" to apply to another bit of legislation.

This is the best example I can find any where of what is & what is not "hire or reward".

 

[rcx132]

I have a reply from the main police helpdesk regarding towing with an unplated vehicle registered before the explicit towing rules (1997 I thought, 1998 according to Justme). I'm just waiting for them to clarify part of the email before I post the answer.

So, before I post, any bets on what the answer is? Towing with an unplated vehicle is explicitly disallowed on early vehicles or not?

 

[Shox Dr]

I have a reply from the main police helpdesk regarding towing with an unplated vehicle registered before the explicit towing rules (1997 I thought, 1998 according to Justme). I'm just waiting for them to clarify part of the email before I post the answer.

So, before I post, any bets on what the answer is? Towing with an unplated vehicle is explicitly disallowed on early vehicles or not?

Does it matter? Its clear (or not) that it is down to the person who stopped you, and what 'they' think is the law. You may well have a bit of paper, but if he disagrees with it, then where are you. If it goes to court chances are they'll just turn round and say it was incorrect information you were supplied. Then its down to how deep your wallet is for either legal adivse, or fine.

 

[rcx132]

Does it matter? Its clear (or not) that it is down to the person who stopped you, and what 'they' think is the law. You may well have a bit of paper, but if he disagrees with it, then where are you. If it goes to court chances are they'll just turn round and say it was incorrect information you were supplied. Then its down to how deep your wallet is for either legal adivse, or fine.

What? If it goes to court then the court will follow the law, not what they think is the law. Police will usually check if they are unsure. And I think there's enough unplated vehicles on the road that traffic cops know what to do.

 

[colnerov]

What? If it goes to court then the court will follow the law, not what they think is the law. Police will usually check if they are unsure. And I think there's enough unplated vehicles on the road that traffic cops know what to do.

Hi, Yes the police will check if they are unsure, with DVSA because they are the their experts. If your interpretation differs from the DVSA officer's he will have to defend his interpretation to his boss the Traffic Commissioner, who will decide how it will proceed. So the thing to do is contact the Traffic commissioners office and ask them if yours is right and then get it in writing and carry it with you. Someone else on here did this and it can stop any problems at the roadside.

Colin

 

[rcx132]

I feel like this is getting silly. I mean to not tow because your worried that a police officer might mis-interpret the law just doesn't sit with me, especially that the court will clear you and you could make a claim via MCOL for your losses if you can show the police officer didn't take reasonable steps to check (i.e. didn't call in). The police response I got is that if you tow with an unplated vehicle you can still be done if the vehicle is dangerous (i.e. overloaded). That's exactly what I said in my first post here. I will phone the DVSA as well, but I'm continuing to tow with my unplated truck. It's also logical, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of vehicles designed for towing that are unplated because of their age, no one has seen any rule that stops them (except for the later type approval rules). Plus it would follow that if you can't tow because of a lack of plate then you also can't carry any load in the car as the plate specifies the car capacity as well.

WARNING: Around 1997 rules changed... this only applies to earlier cars.

 

[Shox Dr]

Relying on information supplied that suits your veiw, doesn't mean it's correct regardless of where it came from.

 

[colnerov]

Hi, I do sympathise with you, however towing with an unplated vehicle is operating in uncharted waters and you can expect a little difficulty from time to time. So if you can show that you have made efforts to comply by having an understanding of the rules and not just blatantly ignoring them, will go some way to improving the situation.

Phoning them up is all right to a point but verbal information is not worth the paper its written on. You need to get it in writing. I was told some years ago about how the civil service departments work, junior personnel answer the phones and give advice usually from a 'crib sheet' or their understanding. The written questions and replies are dealt with by senior personnell because it has got to be correct with their name on it.

Colin

 

[rcx132]

So how come you're so against towing with an unplated vehicle? No one on here has managed to show it's not allowed. I've read through pages of rules and not found any mention. I had VOSA say it was ok a few years ago, the police said the same on two occassions, in writing, and the rules people have found and copy-pasted into this thread are all on the lines of "if the vehicle has a GTW.... then...."

Relying on information supplied that suits your veiw, doesn't mean it's correct regardless of where it came from.

You're talking about confirmation bias? But this scenario doesn't fit with confirmation bias. My original checks were made before I had any interest in unplated vehicles, and ALL the evidence we have says the same.

 

[carbon]

I wouldn't rely on any information from the dvsa help desk as they don't seem to know the correct answers in my experience. You need to speak to a case worker but not sure how you speak to them directly without a case for them to deal with

 

[normspanners]

I used to have an mot garage quite close to the ministry check point (you could see it) from the garage forecourt and we used to get both the ministry guys and the people they stopped coming to the garage for help.
They had stopped one guy on his way to scotland with a transit twin wheel and trailer for all intents it was the usual 5500 gtw transit, except this one only had 3500 and no train weight or maybe the same 3500 for gtw, but for no real reason !
Sorry I cant remember the exact scenario We checked witter tow bars web site and it stated 5500kg towing capacity for transits.
they stopped him and would not let him continue, he was screaming mad he had two identical transit pickups bought at the same time, one was 3500 and the other was 5500 !! they both came and checked all my 3 transits they all had the 5500 gtw, but that made no difference we even rang the ford dealers for him ,who said they only keep records for so long , the ministry made him leave the trailer with us whilst he drove all the way to scotland to off load, then drive back pick up the trailer take that and off load, but he was then ok to drive back with the empty trailer because he was then under the 3500 !!
absolutely ridiculous but that is what happened. The poor guy was sick.
This was not hearsay, it was fact I was involved because I had to reopen the garage at silly oclock for the poor guy to pick up his trailer.

 

[colnerov]

So how come you're so against towing with an unplated vehicle? No one on here has managed to show it's not allowed. I've read through pages of rules and not found any mention. I had VOSA say it was ok a few years ago, the police said the same on two occassions, in writing, and the rules people have found and copy-pasted into this thread are all on the lines of "if the vehicle has a GTW.... then...."

Hi, I'm not against towing with an unplated vehicle, my own Land Rover is unplated by dint of age (1959). The DVSA are because they don't know whether the vehicle is overloaded or not without further checks. I'm just saying that if the combination doesn't look right you can expect questions or problems. Just trying to make you aware that the 'game' is forever changing and as justme says you need to keep abreast of it.

I'm sorry if I come across as having a go.

Colin

 

[Justme]

I have a reply from the main police helpdesk regarding towing with an unplated vehicle registered before the explicit towing rules (1997 I thought, 1998 according to Justme). I'm just waiting for them to clarify part of the email before I post the answer.

So, before I post, any bets on what the answer is? Towing with an unplated vehicle is explicitly disallowed on early vehicles or not?

Er I said 97 you said 98

 

[Justme]

My issue is that with a GTW plate & being under it you are deemed to be legal & towing / driving a safe combination as long as not actually over that weight.

Having no confirmed limits it is then up to you to prove that it is legal & safe.

Also dep on your licence age it could be hard to prove that you are driving in accordance with your licence.

Re the licencing change date it was the 01-01-1997.

I am not sure if that is also the date for this issue as info is very limited.

Prior to then it was not an issue as everyone could tow any weight with any vehicle.
Which is how the 85% guide for caravans came in as a sensible guidance for inexperienced towers.

 

[rcx132]

I know we've kind of finished this thread, but I've had another email from the police because I asked for some more clarity and they've said interesting things. So below is the rule that would still apply to towing with an unplated car. Note that this rule would also apply to plated cars as well though, so even if you're within your plated limits, but say your nose weight is to high, you could still be done. As you can see, the rule is much more generic.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/40A

They also said that the vehicle must have a valid reason for not having a VIN plate, and that it's an offence to use a vehicle that should have a plate without one.

My Mitsubishi L400 has the same running gear, chassis, and spec as a Pajero, just the body is different, mine is an MPV, while Pajero is an SUV. So I just follow the Pajero tow limits. I only tow a few times a year anyway.

Has anyone seen this effect, if your nose weight is too low? I'm always surprised how few towing accidents there are when I see how much more unstable cars are with trailers:

Usual disclaimer: everything I've posted here is based on my understand of the law, from what relatively little I've read of it, even the police were hesitant to give information saying it's ultimately for the courts to decide. Do your own checks and make your own decision. And remember rules changed in 1997, when I think vehicles had to be explicitly type approved to tow.

 

[normspanners]

Well As somebody that has both a discovery and a delica and have had both loaded to the 'max' it is crazy that the discovery has a greater towing capacity, the delica handles it MUCH better the pulling power and the brakes are FAR superior
The delica handles a load much better and you dont know you are towing, because of the lack of rear overhang.
BUT the main problem with the disco is the rear brakes are pressure limited, they do not have load sensing valve which means the brakes do not increase as the load is applied and that creates a light front end when braking HARD with atrailer on cromwells

running gear, chassis, and spec as a Pajero,

They are not the same as a pajero BTW, a pajero has a chassis the delica doesn't it is monocoque. the axles are roughly the same though

PS I hope this thread doesnt end because I still could do with more info and the more people looking the better IMO
ps still no reply from the ministry to first did Email,I forward it back to them again and added the below comment, this time I got this reply and ONLY this

We’ve received your email and hope to reply to you within 20 working days.

maybe automated, but I dont think it actually was automated but at least they have actually responded THIS time, to the question

Hi I have received no reply from you regarding my Email regarding this question, DO YOU INTEND TO REPLY OR NOT?

what is the point of avertising this service if nobody replies ?

Btw the vehicle in question below is pre 1997

Thank you Norman ********

 

[rcx132]

They are not the same as a pajero BTW, a pajero has a chassis the delica doesn't it is monocoque. the axles are roughly the same though

Thanks for that info. Shows you can't believe anything you hear! Always check.

PS I hope this thread doesnt end because I still could do with more info and the more people looking the better IMO

In that case I will also argue that if the car is unplated who says that the onus is on the driver to show it's safe. From what I've heard it's upto the police to show it's unsafe, and that is the basis of our justice system as well. The email I got from the police is that if the vehicle is unsafe then it would normally be examined by an expert.

 

[normspanners]

then it would normally be examined by an expert.

my definition of expert ------ EX as in has been----- Spurt as in drip under pressure

The guy I was talking about previously from anglesey, I 'think' was the resident 'expert' on call to the police re overloading etc.
the problem is waiting for the said expert to come out, whilst you have a prohibition notice on your rig.

As said I feel much happier/safer towing in the delica, rather than the disco but the disco is legal-------- but now is it, if it has no weight plate !!! ???
As I am in the same situation.

 

[Justme]

If you can put your question as clearly & succinctly as possible on here I can put it through the official channels I use to get a reply.

It is really important that the question is worded to leave no doubt about what is the issue.

They are very good at answering the questions asked even if the question is wrong.