UK towing

[Justme]

I did my checks years ago so you'd need need to email them yourself. And how can I show you that no law says you can't do something? Sorry I'm not going to argue further, I'm happy with the checks I did and I'm happy towing with my unplated imported truck.

For post 1997 i believe the law is more explicit that you can only tow with a type approved vehicle.

Not arguing, just trying to get to the bottom of a very complex situation. I deal with so many people that claim to have found info / a law re an issue yet it cant actually be found in the regs.

Re your comment about you cant prove a negative. I get that however if there is no exemption then the full regs would still apply.

If all you have is your memory of a conversation you are going to get screwed in a road side stop & end up with a court appearance. If you are flying close to the wind its better to have the docs in the car that give weight to your case as then most cops would not even ticket you.

I have made packs up for some people / companies to keep in the vehicles to prove compliance with Towing, GTW, Tacho & O licence regulations.

I can find no legal source for imports being exempt. I can find some info re law changes for this after 31st May 1998 for some vehicles but for others the date is in 1968.

Its an interesting topic & will take some time to get to the bottom of it. Even the Hughes Road Traffic Act legal guide has very little in it that is applicable.

 

[normspanners]

so no GTW was put on the plates.

Yes there are lots with no gtw, I have one
did you read my post from

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/repository/CONT067324.pdf

about adding the gtw to the plate ?
But also I am struggling to refind the official ref that states if there is no gtw on the plate you cant tow ? it seems to have disappeared ?

 

[carbon]

Have found this on the gov site about towing with a car, not a pdf https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/weight-and-width-limits

 

[normspanners]

Thats the one

Most cars have a maximum weight they can tow. It’s usually listed in the handbook or specification sheet.

Alternatively the vehicle’s ‘gross train weight’ may be listed on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate on the car. This is normally under the bonnet or inside the driver’s door.

The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.


If your VIN plate doesn’t list a train weight, you should not use your vehicle for towing.

This is full of ifs and maybe's that is sort of saying some cars might not have a max weight limit
then saying the GTW must not be exceeded------ well if it isnt listed how can it be limited ?
it then goes on to say it MAY be listed on the plate----- well if it is in the handbook and not on the plate they then are contradicting themselves.
but if that limit is stated it MUST not be exceeded
it then changes to you should not use your vehicle for towing. which is not actually---- MUST not ?

Being pedantic about it there is a subtle difference between the two in my eyes

The difference between MUST and SHOULD
‘Must’ and ‘should’ are both modal verbs.
MUST is used when expressing obligation or an unavoidable requirement, whereas SHOULD is more of a recommendation, or simply a desirable goal.
MUST
Similar to ‘have to’ – strong obligation.
– You must abide by the law.
– You mustn’t smoke indoors, it is illegal.
– You must arrive on time; otherwise, we will leave without you.
SHOULD
Similar to ‘ought to’ – a suggestion.
– You should try to get some sleep; it is very late, and you have a lot of work to do tomorrow.
– You shouldn’t be so mean to your brother, he’s just trying to help you.
– You should visit us more often, we hardly ever see you nowadays.

 

[carbon]

Vosa / Dvsa being vague again so it can be made to suit them.

 

[printcom]

Thanks for all the info chaps, its been an interesting if not somewhat confusing read. One things quite apparent - the laws stacked in vosas favor when it comes to fines - how the hell can mere mortals keep track of that lot.

 

[8ob]

I was intrigued that leccy brakes were in use now in the EU so had a read up. Found this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/american-caravans-and-trailers-brakes-and-couplings

@Justme has pointed out on several occasions that the loosely worded information on these gov.uk sites is only a brief outline of transport law and not the full version. Its in your own interests to dig a bit deeper.

Bob

 

[rcx132]

When the police stop you for something complex like a towing issue, they often aren't that clued up. But they radio in and get advice. Those same consulting officers that they get clarity from are probably the same officers that answer the difficult emails we send them.

@Justme, I'm not working from memory. After speaking to Vosa etc I took notes and condensed them and I checked that everything the different bodies told me matched up with each other and with the official documents I found online. I still have the notes but I'm weary of publishing them online because of liability.

I wasted probably three long evenings reading online about towing, only to be more confused. Nothing beat picking up the phone and asking the experts. The only reliable online sources I found were the .gov website, the C+U regs online, and some letter/email replies from VOSA that people had received about towing and posted online.

 

[HughF]

I was intrigued that leccy brakes were in use now in the EU so had a read up. Found this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/american-caravans-and-trailers-brakes-and-couplings

@Justme has pointed out on several occasions that the loosely worded information on these gov.uk sites is only a brief outline of transport law and not the full version. Its in your own interests to dig a bit deeper.

Bob

Great article, looks like to all that is required is moving the brake controller from the tow vehicle to the trailer/caravan.

Electric brakes are awesome, god knows why they're not standard over here, overrun brakes are such junk in comparison.

 

[Justme]

Thats the one



This is full of ifs and maybe's that is sort of saying some cars might not have a max weight limit
then saying the GTW must not be exceeded------ well if it isnt listed how can it be limited ?
it then goes on to say it MAY be listed on the plate----- well if it is in the handbook and not on the plate they then are contradicting themselves.
but if that limit is stated it MUST not be exceeded
it then changes to you should not use your vehicle for towing. which is not actually---- MUST not ?

Being pedantic about it there is a subtle difference between the two in my eyes

Yep full of if's but's & who care's lol.

What you can count on is that if stopped & are within GTW then the weight its self has to be considered to be legal.

If over weight or no GTW then its up to you to prove legality.

In addition whilst the above is C&U law your licence might also limit you too.

 

[Justme]

@Justme, I'm not working from memory. After speaking to Vosa etc I took notes and condensed them and I checked that everything the different bodies told me matched up with each other and with the official documents I found online. I still have the notes but I'm weary of publishing them online because of liability.

I wasted probably three long evenings reading online about towing, only to be more confused. Nothing beat picking up the phone and asking the experts. The only reliable online sources I found were the .gov website, the C+U regs online, and some letter/email replies from VOSA that people had received about towing and posted online.

Things change, laws change, courts make decisions & people leave jobs.
IE VOSA do not exist anymore, its now the DVSA.
They have new bosses & things are changing slowly.
Interpretation & guidance alters. I am spending more & more time sending corrections in to them re info on the website. Some I think are mistakes, others I think its what they want people to do & are hoping that know one notices.

You cant afford to just check once.

 

[colnerov]

Things change, laws change, courts make decisions & people leave jobs.
IE VOSA do not exist anymore, its now the DVSA.
They have new bosses & things are changing slowly.
Interpretation & guidance alters. I am spending more & more time sending corrections in to them re info on the website. Some I think are mistakes, others I think its what they want people to do & are hoping that know one notices.

You cant afford to just check once.

Hi, This is absolutely right. I've said this before, that when I did my last CPC module the instructor was saying that the previous day he'd had a number of officers from the DVSA in doing their CPC, at one point they were arguing amongst themselves about some point that had come up in the course (which has to have been approved by their compliance team). So it all comes down sometimes to individual officers interpretation of the rules and regulations. Not ideal by any means but something to be aware of and shows that you may have to articulate and prove your interpretation of the same.

Colin

 

[armalites]

It's crazy world we live in that there are not a set of hard and fast clear rules that we can all work to, most of the sites are full of flowery language that doesn't help anyone. Having spoken to DVSA about strapping loads even the guy I spoke to pretty much said it will depend on the person inspecting.

Whilst we cannot rule out being pulled at one of public check points you can avoid attention by making sure your trailer looks in good order,lights working,load is secure and you are not driving like a tool.That said I've seen them in village pulling trailers and even putting wheel scales on to check axle loading, it's something many forget it's entirely possible to have 2000kg on a 3500kg GW trailer but still be over loaded on a axle.

 

[rcx132]

Things change, laws change, courts make decisions & people leave jobs.
IE VOSA do not exist anymore, its now the DVSA.
They have new bosses & things are changing slowly.
Interpretation & guidance alters. I am spending more & more time sending corrections in to them re info on the website. Some I think are mistakes, others I think its what they want people to do & are hoping that know one notices.

You cant afford to just check once.

Ok, you're making convincing arguments. I will email the Police helpdesk now and ask as I may not have directly asked last time. Unless someone has another way of checking, because remember it is the lack of a law saying you can't tow that allows unplated vehicles to tow.

 

[carbon]

More to do with Dvsa than train weights but it's how they seem to work. I have an artic and trailer for work. I only every transport my own goods in it so according to them I didn't need a driver cpc as I'm not making any money from driving, but as the trailer is sign written promoting my business with telephone numbers etc the trailer has the potential to create income so I need to have a driver cpc

 

[Agrismith]

More to do with Dvsa than train weights but it's how they seem to work. I have an artic and trailer for work. I only every transport my own goods in it so according to them I didn't need a driver cpc as I'm not making any money from driving, but as the trailer is sign written promoting my business with telephone numbers etc the trailer has the potential to create income so I need to have a driver cpc

Is it owned by your company or personal
The only time you dont need a cpc is if its for personal use such as horse boxes vintage lorrys or motorracing transport the fact you say its for work implies you need a cpc

 

[carbon]

Yes it's for work but own goods so no charge for transport unless I invoice myself. Have a driver cpc so not a problem but just trying to point out how vosa - dvsa work

 

[8ob]

Ok, you're making convincing arguments. I will email the Police helpdesk now and ask as I may not have directly asked last time. Unless someone has another way of checking, because remember it is the lack of a law saying you can't tow that allows unplated vehicles to tow.

With these replies the last line normally ends with a slippery side step disclaimer stating that its your responsibility to seek independent legal clarification on your particular case, they seem to hide behind "without prejudice" and other bovine excrement type get out clauses rather than a definitive answer.

Bob

 

[normspanners]

Yes it's for work but own goods so no charge for transport unless I invoice myself. Have a driver cpc so not a problem but just trying to point out how vosa - dvsa work

Many drivers in the industry will now be required to complete the Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence (DCPC) however some may be exempt. Unfortunately, those that may be exempt could find that the rules are open to interpretation by the enforcement authorities and the onus to prove exemption falls on the driver.
For example, a Scaffolder who loads only his own vehicle and takes materials and/or equipment to site and erects it then he is exempt. BUT if he loads a vehicle or ‘drops off’ materials to another site for another operative then he is not exempt. The penalty for the driver will be 6 points on his licence plus a fine of up to £1000. The operator may face a fine of up to £5000 PER INFRINGEMENT plus face the prospect of losing their operator’s licence!

Isnt it a load of tosh what is different in those two?----- just a stress causer for the average working man

 

[Justme]

The phrase to use is
"Working on your own recognisance"

If I remember correctly.

Its on the laptop so can confirm later.