UK towing

[Justme]

Also ask him about the weights on the V5

 

[normspanners]

Nope not grey at all.

No GTW no towing.

lots of vehicles have no markings on the plate
Neither have lots of LR discoveries and they come with towbars already fitted !! and are designed for 6220 gtw.
but have no gtw on the plate or the v5

The capability of the towing vehicle

The chassis plate on the vehicle (see table in Section 7) states the maximum weights allowed - the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the Gross Combination Weight (GCW).

The vehicle handbook will either repeat what is on the chassis plate, or for convenience, might directly specify the maximum weight of trailer (eg 750kg) which is allowed to be towed. The V5C registration certificate often shows this too, under sections O1 and O2 (depending on whether trailer has brakes or not). Exceeding any of the above weights is likely to be construed as using a vehicle in a dangerous condition.

Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW.

I have rang .gov and enquired as to the legality of this, they told me they could not answer over the phone so have emailed .gov regarding this question .
and will post their reply


something I have just seen ??

Maximum authorised mass
Maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight.

It will be listed in the owner’s manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle.

The plate or sticker may also show a gross train weight (GTW), also sometimes called gross combination weight (GCW). This is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load.

HUM It will be listed in the owner’s manual
does'nt say HAVE to be on weight plate says normally and may
I do realise that it does state elsewhere on .gov that if its not stamped there you cant
but once again they do not have it, made clear.

 

[Justme]

The gov site is a loosely worded guide re the actual law.

No GTW no tow.

 

[Shox Dr]

The gov site is a loosely worded guide re the actual law.

So about as much use as mudflaps on a tortoise then

 

[Agrismith]

A quick read of the licence guides indicates that that for him to use the full weight he would require c+e
Even c1+e isnt enough
And for over 3500kg trailer close coupled brakes however i cant find anywhere that stipulates whether only air is acceptable or whether vacuum or hydraulic will suffice
Or electric as i believe there are some electric brakes now approved for uk use but i dont know what weight limits they havr

 

[Justme]

A quick read of the licence guides indicates that that for him to use the full weight he would require c+e
Even c1+e isnt enough
And for over 3500kg trailer close coupled brakes however i cant find anywhere that stipulates whether only air is acceptable or whether vacuum or hydraulic will suffice
Or electric as i believe there are some electric brakes now approved for uk use but i dont know what weight limits they havr

Yep for full limit CE is needed if it is still plated as per the USA.

The brake issue has changed recently to allow some elec brakes. I am not full up on those changes or the braking systems on heavier trailers so cant comment.

 

[rcx132]

I had a quick look into this for my Hilux Surf, a Japanese import. There's no GTW information on the VIN plate, and even after numerous emails back and forth to Toyota UK and Japan, they were unable to give any weights. From what I understand, that puts towing into quite a grey area, and I've since removed the towbar anyway.

Interested to see what you find out!

Hey it's not a grey area. Having read the construction+use regs, spoken to gov bodies and also having got email replies from the senior advisory police officers....

Assuming your Surf is pre-1997 (things changed in 1997) if there is no safety plate, you can tow what you want so long as it's safe. Safe means it has to be within manufacturers specs, if there are any, and, erh, safe. The advantage you have is that it's more difficult for the police to prosecute if you don't have a safety plate.

If you read construction+use regs you will see that imported vehicles have some exemptions. Among these is the exemption to have a safety plate.

The safety plate also has axle limits and car weight limits. So saying "no GTW, no tow" would also mean "no axle limits, no passengers". In the same way classic cars have no safety plates, but can still tow. And home made trailer have no safety plate but can still carry a load (from 1997 all trailers must have safety plates, but of course no requirement to prove the age of a trailer so meaningless law for amateur built trailers).

BUT things changed for vehicles built 1997 onwards (EU homogolisation I think) and I'm sure the changes affected towing but I'm not sure what the rules are after 1997.

If you are unsure the Police have a help desk for such things.

 

[colnerov]

Hi, The Police are not necessarily the problem because they would defer to the DVSA because they would consider them the experts and would take guidance from them. If they could not determine weight limits because of no plated or documented weights the first thing they would look at would be the tyres weight rating and see if the combinations weight exceeded that. You don't really want to be arguing this at the side of the road or even indeed in court as a test case. Taking one for the team, I don't think so.

Colin

 

[Justme]

Hey it's not a grey area. Having read the construction+use regs, spoken to gov bodies and also having got email replies from the senior advisory police officers....

Assuming your Surf is pre-1997 (things changed in 1997) if there is no safety plate, you can tow what you want so long as it's safe. Safe means it has to be within manufacturers specs, if there are any, and, erh, safe. The advantage you have is that it's more difficult for the police to prosecute if you don't have a safety plate.

If you read construction+use regs you will see that imported vehicles have some exemptions. Among these is the exemption to have a safety plate.

The safety plate also has axle limits and car weight limits. So saying "no GTW, no tow" would also mean "no axle limits, no passengers". In the same way classic cars have no safety plates, but can still tow. And home made trailer have no safety plate but can still carry a load (from 1997 all trailers must have safety plates, but of course no requirement to prove the age of a trailer so meaningless law for amateur built trailers).

BUT things changed for vehicles built 1997 onwards (EU homogolisation I think) and I'm sure the changes affected towing but I'm not sure what the rules are after 1997.

If you are unsure the Police have a help desk for such things.

Do you have a source for all this?

 

[normspanners]

I have rang .gov and enquired as to the legality of this, they told me they could not answer over the phone so have emailed .gov regarding this question .
and will post their reply

well as expected... no reply from the helpline !!

 

[Justme]

Pre 97 licence you can tow without limits if safe.
(and pre 2013 BE licence too)

Cant find any ref re vehicles changing at that date.

Safe would be assumed to be complied with if under vehicle makers recommended limits.

They are not however enforceable unless unsafe (bit of a circular argument).

GTW plates are enforceable.

Trailer under 3500kg prior to the IVA had no legal need for a weight plate or ID.
I know post IVA they must have an ID plate. would need to check if that now also mandates the weight too.
However if no weight was displayed then tyre load index's would be used.

 

[Justme]

well as expected... no reply from the helpline !!

Lol from my experience you will get a reply in 24 hours to 18 months.

 

[normspanners]

I bought a welder and other gear off a guy from angelsey he built custom trailers and was packing in and moving to canada? (maybe??) any way he was on call to the police and ministry to answer tec questions if needed, because of accidents etc overloading etc and was called out on a few occasions to the infamous A55 to holyhead /then ireland he explained to me that not many people/ police and even the ministry guys are fully up on all these legalities there are too many grey areas, for eg if no plates on trailers the tyre loading limit was used etc etc
he said the question of elec brakes was brought up but not decided on !!

However if no weight was displayed then tyre load index's would be used.

snap!!
PS he said also the biggest thing they were getting people on was the tacho law because that is written down !!

 

[normspanners]

this NOT a reply to my question to the .gov site
just something I found http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-can-I-tow&s=e9d45d8c5a1d40d76d70cbbcdba05f54

I have had a reply to my e-mail to the Department for Transport, which (in my opinon) finally clarifies the situation.

The reply is as follows:

"Thank you for your email of 16 June to this Department about the fact sheets published on the Department's website providing guidance about towing. Your email has been passed to this section because we are responsible for the regulations relating to towing.

There are two different circumstances which dictate the permissible maximum weight of towed trailers:

1) The towing vehicle manufacturer specifies the maximum mass of a trailer to towed: or,
2) The towing vehicle manufacturer specifies a maximum trail weight of the combination: i.e. maximum mass of towing vehicle and trailer.

The first is quite clear and is self explanatory. The second permits some flexibility and therefore if the towing vehicle is not fully loaded and is below the maximum vehicle weight, when a trailer/caravan is attached to the vehicle there may be some remaining weight capacity within the overall maximum combination (train) weight. However, the driver of the vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the nose weight of the tow ball, the weight limit of the tow bar/ tow bar mountings or any of the axle/gross/train weights are not exceeded.

In the example given on the fact sheet "Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions" we have assumed, for simplicity, that the towing vehicle is fully loaded to its maximum capacity and this is indicated by the sentence "So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180kg and a train weight of 3980kg the maximum towing capacity will be 3980kg minus 2180kg which gives a towing capacity of 1800kg", which you quoted in your email.

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 don't explicitly state that to calculate the towing weight you subtract the maximum vehicle weight from the maximum train weight. However, we have aimed to summarise the regulations in a simple format for the general public.

We are unable to comment on any actions taken by enforcement officers, including the police.

As you will appreciate the above views are my opinion and not those of the Department as interpretation of the law is the prerogative of the courts.

I hope this clarifies the situation."


The sentence: 'The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 don't explicitly state that to calculate the towing weight you subtract the maximum vehicle weight from the maximum train weight' is the important one.

So to go back to the original post, and to answer LSi's question, you WERE quite legal, plod was wrong in this case, (although I would suggest that his/her mistake could be an honest one mitigated by the misleading information available to them). So you DON'T need to sell your van and buy a Discovery!

As long as you don't exceed any of the specific weights on your plates, and provided the V5c doesn't give any maximum trailer weight, you carry on my friend.

If you get pulled up in the future and someone suggests that you are exceeding the max trailer weight, ask them under which specific regulation you are committing an offence.

This is not a grey area, or a loophole, it's just that it would appear that quite a few plods have been misinformed.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?226543-What-weight-can-I-tow#gY21xilmOubHIf0K.99

 

[rcx132]

Do you have a source for all this?

Yes, my sources are at the beginning of my original post:

Having read the construction+use regs, spoken to gov bodies and also having got email replies from the senior advisory police officers....

The police helpdesk where they refererred my queries was:
pnld@westyorkshire.pnn.police.uk. The construction+use regs are on the .gov website.

I REALLY REALLY would not believe what anyone says about towing rules online. The reason I was forced to phone around government bodies was that the forums and even driving school websites were full of very contradicting information. I phoned around, took notes, I read some of the official rules, and that's the rules I follow when I tow. I ignore what the websites says because of a lot of it is very wrong (I remember someone published a letter from VOSA on a forum, where VOSA were surprised by by some of the myths circulating online about towing).

Be advised that the Police may/will discourage towing with an unplated vehicle, but read their words carefully, this is the response I got about towing an unplated trailer where the MAM (max authorised mass) is unknown:

If it's an old trailer and you cannot ascertain this information, we would suggest you don't use it

The key word is "suggest". If there is a safety plate then everything is clear. If there is no plate then they look at the components (tyre capacity, tow hitch capacity). But lack of plate doesn't stop them prosecuting if your are towing a clearly unsafe load as there's another set of rules about that.

 

[Justme]

The reply is about an unplated trailer, it wont apply to a vehicle.
I meant sources I could actually look at.
Each police force will give a different answer.

The C&U regs say the limit from the maker is advisory. The GTW is law. Not having one at all will get the book chucked at you.

 

[wookie]

I would imagine finding approved towbars that would run trailers at nine tons will be a challenge.

You can get a Nato Hitch with a load rating up to 12190 kg that I know of so as long as the bit of the vehicle you bolt it to is strong enough it would be fine. As for the legality on modern vehicles I have no idea.

 

[rcx132]

The reply is about an unplated trailer, it wont apply to a vehicle.
I meant sources I could actually look at.
Each police force will give a different answer.

The C&U regs say the limit from the maker is advisory. The GTW is law. Not having one at all will get the book chucked at you.

I did my checks years ago so you'd need need to email them yourself. And how can I show you that no law says you can't do something? Sorry I'm not going to argue further, I'm happy with the checks I did and I'm happy towing with my unplated imported truck.

For post 1997 i believe the law is more explicit that you can only tow with a type approved vehicle.

 

[normspanners]

Sorry I'm not going to argue further,

I dont think justme is arguing, I think he is trying to help us and is willing to learn himself in this minefield area, I am VERY concerned as to the legalities of all this and there seems no black and white answers to this

I Found this
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/repository/CONT067324.pdf

What will happen if my vehicle is found to be overloaded? If your vehicle is found to be overloaded by an enforcement officer it can result in a prohibition notice which will prevent you from continuing your journey until the weight is corrected. This may mean the goods being unloaded to bring the weight down or being redistributed (in axle overload cases). You will then be issued with a ‘removal of prohibition notice’ to continue your journey. You may alternatively be issued with a ‘direction to drive notice’ which allows you to drive to a specified place to off-load.

What precautions should I take when towing a trailer? Towing a trailer puts greater demand on the vehicle and the driver. Information on acceptable trailer towing weights can be found in vehicle handbooks. You should ensure that: • The vehicle does not exceed either the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or the Gross Train Weight (GTW). The GVW is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle (plus any load it is carrying), while the GTW is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle plus any trailer being towed (plus any load being carried in the vehicle and trailer); • Any vehicle with a chassis plate which is towing a trailer has the maximum GTW added to its chassis plate. Otherwise, if the vehicle is weighed at a check point, the total weight could appear to exceed the maximum gross weight; • Any load being carried in the trailer is kept as low as possible and near to the axle.

Type Approval and European Law 94/20EC

Most passenger cars registered after 1st August 1998 (S registration) must be fitted with a Type Approved towbar. These cars have an “e” mark on the VIN plate together with the maximum car and trailer mass. If the trailer mass is not specified then the car is not permitted to tow a trailer, however it may still be fitted with a support bracket to fit a cycle or motorbike carrier.

European regulations were introduced on 1st August 1998 to harmonise the testing and approval of towbars throughout the EU. The regulations apply to all passenger vehicles registered from 1st August 1998 (S registration) which have to have an "e" mark and its maximum vehicle and trailer masses stamped on a plate. The vehicle manufacturer has to nominate the mounting points for the towbar and the towbar manufacturer has to design to fit to these only. The towbar (not the vehicle or the trailer attached to it) is then tested on a jig, to a formula to ensure it is strong enough to pass the test.

Here at Watling Engineers we fully comply with these regulations and where required we fit EU Type Approved towbars.

These regulations DO NOT APPLY to the following vehicles:
Commercial Vehicles (ie. pick-ups, chassis cabs, vans etc.), Motorhomes, Special Imports (ie. from Japan or America), Front towbars and other cars that are not “e” marked.




I also found this which might explain the lack of gtw on some imports

Towing is NOT illegal in Japan. It used to be until the early 1990s that a car needed to be registered as a 'modified vehicle' when a towing bracket/towbar was fitted to the vehicle. That law has now changed and so long as the towbar is bolted on, then no re-registration of a vehicle is necessary. Since the advent of the jet-skis and the wind down of the pick-up truck in Japan (currently only the Mitsubishi Triton - aka L200 is available here!), boat trailers have become popular. Indeed, Mitsubishi have a towbar in their line-up of official accessories here in Japan.

The problem is this. Japanese cars are not of the same specification as their European counterparts and have not been strengthened for towing. This is not applicable to all Japanese cars, but definitely to most. Pajeros share the same chassis as their European counterparts I have heard from a Mitsubishi Dealer mechanic, but I cannot vouch for that. The main reason why the document you mention shows asterisks is because the manufacturers and dealers here do not publish the towing capacity. Dealers simply do not know or even understand.

Incidentally, I have a BRINK(now THULE) detachable swan neck towbar fitted to my 2007 Mitsubishi Pajero ZR-S 3litre (not 3.8) petrol engine 5MT.

I live in central Tokyo, Japan and during the nineties, towed a Japan built trailer behind my RAV4.

Trailers here have to be registered as a vehicle in their own right and the details of the trailer and permissable towable weight is added to the 'other' section of the document you refer to. So, if you don't pull a trailer, your vehicle registration document will not have that information included.

 

[Justme]

These vehicle are now covered by EU94/20 & its replacement Reg 55.

These regulations DO NOW APPLY to the following vehicles:
Commercial Vehicles (ie. pick-ups, chassis cabs, vans etc.), Motorhomes



Re the GTW plate.

I remember a big case that landrover got involved in due to a batch of their vehicle that were designed for a country that did not allow towing so no GTW was put on the plates. In the end lots got sold in the UK & some even got re imported.

Even Landrover would not replate them with a GTW or help with any enforcement action.