Energy prices.

[fizzy]

Steel embodied energy is about 5000Kwh/ ton. Concrete is about 250/ton
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy)

So, our little turbine spits out just under 10,000kWh/year.

Even if you said none of the steel was recyclable (clearly it is) there can't more than a few years of total embodied energy to pay back.

The blades are fibreglass or carbon fibre mix. Usually hand laid up.
And nearly all Britain's turbines have been built abroad. Billions leaving our economy to keep other people in jobs.
Nuclear employs loads of people in Britain during construction and they are good quality jobs as well.

 

[Gareth J]

The blades are fibreglass or carbon fibre mix. Usually hand laid up.
And nearly all Britain's turbines have been built abroad. Billions leaving our economy to keep other people in jobs.
Nuclear employs loads of people in Britain during construction and they are good quality jobs as well.

So? Add their energy embodiment if you like too. I estimate 100kg max. I deliberately erred on the side of caution with "a few years" embodied energy payback estimate to include such additional bits but double it if you like. Still pay for itself multiple times over.

 

[daleyd]

There’s loads of studies (if you can be bothered to look for them ) that add up all the energy costs to the nth degree and and account for them, and the payback time is still short, in the order of months/a few years. It’s better the bigger the turbine.

I guess it’s just easier to believe what you want to hear rather than actually search out any facts and have a balanced view

 

[fizzy]

There’s loads of studies (if you can be bothered to look for them ) that add up all the energy costs to the nth degree and and account for them, and the payback time is still short, in the order of months/a few years. It’s better the bigger the turbine.

I guess it’s just easier to believe what you want to hear rather than actually search out any facts and have a balanced view

Are you telling me that Dogger Bank will break even in months? Or a few years? What do you call a few?

 

[daleyd]

Are you telling me that Dogger Bank will break even in months? Or a few years? What do you call a few?

No, I’m not telling you that at all. I’m telling you there are plenty of studies I’ve read that show the carbon/financial payback time of wind turbines is in the order of the timescales I mentioned. If you are particularly interested in the Dogger Bank project then you can do your own research and let us know how you get on.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

I don't understand why there is no talk of gas bills reducing given what's been happening with the wholesale price.

Wholesale gas prices in Britain have collapsed

But it will not do much to alleviate the cost-of-living crisis

www.economist.com

 

[fizzy]

I don't understand why there is no talk of gas bills reducing given what's been happening with the wholesale price.

Wholesale gas prices in Britain have collapsed

But it will not do much to alleviate the cost-of-living crisis

www.economist.com

We have no storage.
Think of it like your home heating oil. You run out - you fill your tank - it is stupidly expensive but you still need it. So you order and pay. Then 3 weeks later the price crashes. Your tank is full so you can't order more.
Ok that is very simplistic but in essence that is what happens.

 

[fizzy]

No, I’m not telling you that at all. I’m telling you there are plenty of studies I’ve read that show the carbon/financial payback time of wind turbines is in the order of the timescales I mentioned. If you are particularly interested in the Dogger Bank project then you can do your own research and let us know how you get on.

No mention of the infra structure needed or the installation costs then?

 

[daleyd]

No mention of the infra structure needed or the installation costs then.

Have a read of the reports.

 

[fizzy]

Have a read of the reports.

Could you post a link please?
If these massive wind turbines break even in a few months I suspect we are paying way too much for our electricity. No wonder the bills are so high.

 

[Gareth J]

Could you post a link please?
If these massive wind turbines break even in a few months I suspect we are paying way too much for our electricity. No wonder the bills are so high.

You were specifically talking about embodied energy, payback of embodied energy is different to financial payback.

 

[fizzy]

You were specifically talking about embodied energy, payback of embodied energy is different to financial payback.

No I wasn't - not me.
Also daleyd mentioned financial payback.

 

[Gareth J]

No I wasn't - not me.
Also daleyd mentioned financial payback.

Apologies, my mistake!

 

[Lewis_RX8]

I don't understand why there is no talk of gas bills reducing given what's been happening with the wholesale price.

Wholesale gas prices in Britain have collapsed

But it will not do much to alleviate the cost-of-living crisis

www.economist.com

It is due to our domestic gas being sold on futures markets, current gas prices are low as we have a lot of LNG terminals, Mainland Europe doesn't however we have a few pipelines to the continent so we use our LNG terminals to import gas then sell it through the pipelines to Europe but they are at total flow capacity so there is more gas than the UK can consume or sell and the wholesale prices go down.

But our gas bill is based on future markets where it is assumed this will have balanced out and the UK will be back to paying non artificially decreased prices.

Some proof , I learnt that from a video but here's a short article https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...ing-gas-price-surplus-lower-energy-bills.html

 

[fizzy]

It is due to our domestic gas being sold on futures markets, current gas prices are low as we have a lot of LNG terminals, Mainland Europe doesn't however we have a few pipelines to the continent so we use our LNG terminals to import gas then sell it through the pipelines to Europe but they are at total flow capacity so there is more gas than the UK can consume or sell and the wholesale prices go down.

But our gas bill is based on future markets where it is assumed this will have balanced out and the UK will be back to paying non artificially decreased prices.

Some proof , I learnt that from a video but here's a short article https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...ing-gas-price-surplus-lower-energy-bills.html

I remember all the protests against the building of the terminal in Pembroke and the gas pipeline running across Wales.
No protests against wind turbines ruining our landscape though. The pipeline is of course totally invisible now.

 

[Dave-sparks]

I don't understand why there is no talk of gas bills reducing given what's been happening with the wholesale price.

It's quite simple really. energy suppliers are businesses which exist to make profit, as wholesale prices go down their profits will go up so its in their best interest to not reduce their prices.
Plus the rising costs of energy have killed off a lot of the small energy suppliers who might have actually reduced their prices leaving the big companies to carry on raking it in.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

So I wonder how long they need to stay low for ofgem and the gov to sit up and take notice.

 

[fizzy]

So I wonder how long they need to stay low for ofgem and the gov to sit up and take notice.

The Gov are desperate for things to change - never mind silly parties etc it is the cost of living most people are quite rightly up in arms about. Sooner the better. Even I have reduced speed in my white van

 

[ukracer]

It is getting silly! My bill for December came to £338, I nearly fell over as we usually use about £100 a month. And we have solar pv, I know it's not doing a lot at the moment as we have had some very dull days but it is getting ridiculous! Trouble is the wholesale price of gas and the likes hikes the production cost. Where will it end!!

Wholesale prices are down.......

 

[ukracer]

Martin Lewis is advising against going for any fixed deals

That's because the fixed prices are also price gouging. It's a monopoly.