Energy prices.

[fizzy]

It is due to our domestic gas being sold on futures markets, current gas prices are low as we have a lot of LNG terminals, Mainland Europe doesn't however we have a few pipelines to the continent so we use our LNG terminals to import gas then sell it through the pipelines to Europe but they are at total flow capacity so there is more gas than the UK can consume or sell and the wholesale prices go down.

But our gas bill is based on future markets where it is assumed this will have balanced out and the UK will be back to paying non artificially decreased prices.

Some proof , I learnt that from a video but here's a short article https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...ing-gas-price-surplus-lower-energy-bills.html

I remember all the protests against the building of the terminal in Pembroke and the gas pipeline running across Wales.
No protests against wind turbines ruining our landscape though. The pipeline is of course totally invisible now.

 

[Dave-sparks]

I don't understand why there is no talk of gas bills reducing given what's been happening with the wholesale price.

It's quite simple really. energy suppliers are businesses which exist to make profit, as wholesale prices go down their profits will go up so its in their best interest to not reduce their prices.
Plus the rising costs of energy have killed off a lot of the small energy suppliers who might have actually reduced their prices leaving the big companies to carry on raking it in.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

So I wonder how long they need to stay low for ofgem and the gov to sit up and take notice.

 

[fizzy]

So I wonder how long they need to stay low for ofgem and the gov to sit up and take notice.

The Gov are desperate for things to change - never mind silly parties etc it is the cost of living most people are quite rightly up in arms about. Sooner the better. Even I have reduced speed in my white van

 

[ukracer]

It is getting silly! My bill for December came to £338, I nearly fell over as we usually use about £100 a month. And we have solar pv, I know it's not doing a lot at the moment as we have had some very dull days but it is getting ridiculous! Trouble is the wholesale price of gas and the likes hikes the production cost. Where will it end!!

Wholesale prices are down.......

 

[ukracer]

Martin Lewis is advising against going for any fixed deals

That's because the fixed prices are also price gouging. It's a monopoly.

 

[ukracer]

It's quite simple really. energy suppliers are businesses which exist to make profit, as wholesale prices go down their profits will go up so its in their best interest to not reduce their prices.
Plus the rising costs of energy have killed off a lot of the small energy suppliers who might have actually reduced their prices leaving the big companies to carry on raking it in.

It's now a monopoly.

 

[fizzy]

It's now a monopoly.

Not really. It's the producers of the fuels making most of the cash. And the owners of the windfarms of course. Gas power stations make very little - in fact several have gone bust.

Administrators appointed to Calon Energy Limited

Jim Tucker and David Pike from KPMG’s Restructuring practice were appointed Joint Administrators of Calon Energy Limited (“CEL”) today, 24 June 2020.

home.kpmg

In fact the Baglan power station has shut down for good by the look of it.
There have been all sorts of problems due to this. All the companies that were encouraged to move onto the Baglan energy park site have been threatened with having their power cut off permanently. They are using diesel generators to run the local sewage station.

Second legal challenge over Baglan power cut row

Welsh government confirms it is taking UK ministers to court to maintain power to industrial estate.

www.bbc.co.uk

Baglan Energy Park: Ministers lose bid to stop power cut

Firms at Baglan Energy Park, including a paper mill, face losing electricity supplies as a result.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's a joke.

 

[Dave-sparks]

It's now a monopoly.

It's not actually a monopoly as there are multiple suppliers to choose from.

The problem is that they are all charging the legal maximum that they can, so we don't really have any choice at all.

They are businesses, it does not matter to them that people are choosing between heating and food, it only matters to them that they are maintaining their profits.

A business is not a person, a business does not have compassion, it does not care if the customer is alive or dead, it only cares that the customer pays it's bill.

 

[daleyd]

This was the original question that was asked - note the financial bit which I have tried to answer…

“Be interesting to see the 'cradle to grave' financial cost and environmental impact of one of the big windmills, including decommissioning and correct disposal of the parts.
And even more interesting to see if they actually ever pay for themselves, in both respects.”

The financial reports for the Dogger Bank project has a payback time of 15 years for the entire project, quoted in several sources, at a strike price of £40/Mw. The first articles I looked at just covered the wind turbine part (as was asked in the question) whereas the 15 years covers the entire project, including the considerable costs for grid connection etc which are obviously higher for an offshore installation.

For comparison Hinckley C has a strike price of £90/Mw.

From a carbon and financial POV they appear to be sustainable - the fact they appear to attract private investment suggests they are able to provide a decent return on investment. Contrast this with nuclear which has historically been funded almost exclusively at a state level (even Hinckley is financed by state backed entities, edf and cgn)- so make of that what you will.

I’m really not pro wind/solar/whatever or anti nuclear, but the facts and figures seem to indicate that renewables are a reasonable proposition, and seem to be getting cheaper.

You can of course choose to work yourself into a froth about how evil the greens are and how nuclear is the answer to everything, the truth is probably somewhere nearer the middle if you choose to actually look at the facts.

 

[Bullet2012]

 

[ukracer]

It's not actually a monopoly as there are multiple suppliers to choose from.

The problem is that they are all charging the legal maximum that they can, so we don't really have any choice at all.

They are businesses, it does not matter to them that people are choosing between heating and food, it only matters to them that they are maintaining their profits.

A business is not a person, a business does not have compassion, it does not care if the customer is alive or dead, it only cares that the customer pays it's bill.

Ok it's a cartel then.

And they should be state owned and certainly not foreign owned.

I first thought you were describing a Tory not a business.

 

[ajlelectronics]

Only one thing worse than a private monpoly and that is a state monopoly, aka "Nationalised". I can remember what that was like and have no desire to 'enjoy' its withered fruits again.

 

[ukracer]

Only one thing worse than a private monpoly and that is a state monopoly, aka "Nationalised". I can remember what that was like and have no desire to 'enjoy' its withered fruits again.

But it's the "profits" that are killing us.
What's wrong with Nationalised?
It's the same cost without profits.
Or put it another way its the same cost but the extra cost does not go to someone on the golf course doing "nothing" and raking in the hard earned money off the workers. A state monopoly at least reflects market forces, not excessive immoral profits.

 

[julianthegypsy]

The problem with nationalised industries in Britain is that they were never allowed to operate as industries. British Rail for example was never allowed to borrow money on open markets for investment so couldn't even set a budget properly as they were dependant on whoever was the chancellor deciding how much he felt like giving them on the day, which is pathetic. France on the other hand seem to do it much better, to the extent that their national power company supplies half ours, which helps keep their french customers bills down. Citroen, Renault and Peugeot seem to do well enough too, unlike British Leyland, which most of us would prefer to forget...

 

[fizzy]

But it's the "profits" that are killing us.
What's wrong with Nationalised?
It's the same cost without profits.
Or put it another way its the same cost but the extra cost does not go to someone on the golf course doing "nothing" and raking in the hard earned money off the workers. A state monopoly at least reflects market forces, not excessive immoral profits.

Most of them are not making a profit and many have gone bust.
Like the gas fired powerstations I just linked to.
Who is actually making these huge profits please say.

 

[fizzy]

The problem with nationalised industries in Britain is that they were never allowed to operate as industries. British Rail for example was never allowed to borrow money on open markets for investment so couldn't even set a budget properly as they were dependant on whoever was the chancellor deciding how much he felt like giving them on the day, which is pathetic. France on the other hand seem to do it much better, to the extent that their national power company supplies half ours, which helps keep their french customers bills down. Citroen, Renault and Peugeot seem to do well enough too, unlike British Leyland, which most of us would prefer to forget...

Unions killed them off. Same with ship building.
The company that wanted to revolutionise British shipbuilding were blocked all the way by the unions. So they took their expertise to South Korea.
Just look at the fiasco in Scotland when governments meddle. They could have just bought 3 ferries on the open market for far less than they have wasted. And the ships still aren't ready.

 

[fizzy]

This was the original question that was asked - note the financial bit which I have tried to answer…

“Be interesting to see the 'cradle to grave' financial cost and environmental impact of one of the big windmills, including decommissioning and correct disposal of the parts.
And even more interesting to see if they actually ever pay for themselves, in both respects.”

The financial reports for the Dogger Bank project has a payback time of 15 years for the entire project, quoted in several sources, at a strike price of £40/Mw. The first articles I looked at just covered the wind turbine part (as was asked in the question) whereas the 15 years covers the entire project, including the considerable costs for grid connection etc which are obviously higher for an offshore installation.

For comparison Hinckley C has a strike price of £90/Mw.

From a carbon and financial POV they appear to be sustainable - the fact they appear to attract private investment suggests they are able to provide a decent return on investment. Contrast this with nuclear which has historically been funded almost exclusively at a state level (even Hinckley is financed by state backed entities, edf and cgn)- so make of that what you will.

I’m really not pro wind/solar/whatever or anti nuclear, but the facts and figures seem to indicate that renewables are a reasonable proposition, and seem to be getting cheaper.

You can of course choose to work yourself into a froth about how evil the greens are and how nuclear is the answer to everything, the truth is probably somewhere nearer the middle if you choose to actually look at the facts.

Those strike rates for wind were touted to win contracs for future projects. They are actually being paid far more by careful manipulation of their contracts.
The Rills Royce SMRs are promising £40 as well. We shall see.
I am not against wind power IF we could store the surplus.

 

[julianthegypsy]

Unions killed them off. Same with ship building.
The company that wanted to revolutionise British shipbuilding were blocked all the way by the unions. So they took their expertise to South Korea.
Just look at the fiasco in Scotland when governments meddle. They could have just bought 3 ferries on the open market for far less than they have wasted. And the ships still aren't ready.

Management take at least as much blame, but they had no incentive either. One of my first mentors, a true blue Tory, told me that management gets the workforce it deserves and everything I've seen since agrees with him. The whole thing was run appallingly.

 

[julianthegypsy]

I remember someone who worked in the research dept at Leyland telling me that if the purchasing dept forgot to order some parts that were needed on the production line, management would send the most obnoxious junior down on a pretext to annoy the workers to the point where they all walked out. That's no way to run a company and can't possibly ever succeed.