Energy prices.

[DAPPH]

Why do you think our leccy is so expensive?
If renewables were so brilliant why are we so reliant on gas?
Is it REALLY a good idea to cover prime arable land with solar panels?
In countries like Portugal or parts of Spain they work very well - and they cover areas of arid scrub where there is nothing growing. And yet there are more solar farms in Wales than Spain

We have had 50 or so years setting things to run on North Sea gas & 100 or more on coal gas . Solar farm energy is a mere new born baby in that respect . Putting panels on all buildings no matter how their roof aspect faces is the next big step with the new any angle film panels . You might then see ground arrays being taken off quality agricultural land . Perhaps putting them on motorway embankments where weed ,grass , scrub some trees are the norm .

 

[DAPPH]

My brother has a really powerful computer with a high end graphics card. When gaming it can use 1kw. But having said that the energy isn't wasted. Today I had to light the woodburner. Its nearly June. So basically his "fan heater" as he calls it is only wasting heat for say 3 months a year.
Compressors take quite a bit of power but how often does it run?
The garage near my warehouse never turn theirs off. Madness it kicks in every 30 minutes or so all night long.

Tell them about time clocks and that they can save a fortune if fitting one with a manual over ride .

 

[Edward Teach]

My brother has a really powerful computer with a high end graphics card. When gaming it can use 1kw. But having said that the energy isn't wasted. Today I had to light the woodburner. Its nearly June. So basically his "fan heater" as he calls it is only wasting heat for say 3 months a year.
Compressors take quite a bit of power but how often does it run?
The garage near my warehouse never turn theirs off. Madness it kicks in every 30 minutes or so all night long.

The garage a friend worked at, never turned their compressor off,
Until a hose let go,
The compressor ran all night, eventually beating itself to death, when the mains or ends gave up
I think they switch it off every night now

 

[fizzy]

Provide chum for other fish & the crabs .
So what's all this about using wind power Fizzy ?
To make electricity , then use the electricity to make hydrogen then use limestone ( IIRC?? ) to turn the hydrogen into a safe easily storable substance that can be made back into hydrogen when needed then ? I think it's the essence of the hydrolysis work up being done on one of the outer Scottish islands ( Good security ? )

It might not be as efficient or cost effective to produce initially as a fuel but even if it is only 40 % effective and within a reasonable cost range it's better than nothing if it can be done on a big enough scale surely .

I am actually a big fan of hydrogen power.
I would be all in favour of wind power IF we could store it.
Hydrogen seems the perfect solution but the efficiency is awful. You say even if only 40% effective which I suspect is about right. Sadly the wind companies will not get paid only 40%. They can't afford to build windfarms if they aren't getting top whack for the electric.
Which basically means we are paying 100% for only 40% of the leccy!

 

[fizzy]

We have had 50 or so years setting things to run on North Sea gas & 100 or more on coal gas . Solar farm energy is a mere new born baby in that respect . Putting panels on all buildings no matter how their roof aspect faces is the next big step with the new any angle film panels . You might then see ground arrays being taken off quality agricultural land . Perhaps putting them on motorway embankments where weed ,grass , scrub some trees are the norm .

As to solar power I am NOT against people fitting it themselves and using the electricity themselves.
It would be very hard to lose money with today's electricity prices.
What I am against are the subsidies involved and using them for mass power generation.
Before the Ukraine war and everything going nuts a gas power station would only get about 4p per kw/h. There is no way solar could ever compete with that which is why I am against it and why our electric bills are so high. Same with wind.

 

[daleyd]

Energy security strategy: How would moving to renewables save us money on fuel bills?

It's now cheaper to produce energy from wind than gas. As the government announces its energy security strategy, how might speeding up the change to net zero save us all money? And what's holding us back?

news.sky.com

 

[fizzy]

Energy security strategy: How would moving to renewables save us money on fuel bills?

It's now cheaper to produce energy from wind than gas. As the government announces its energy security strategy, how might speeding up the change to net zero save us all money? And what's holding us back?

news.sky.com

Burning £10 notes is cheaper than gas at the moment
Having said that the price per therm has plummeted lately in the UK on the spot market.
The US and Canada can supply far more from shale it just takes time to ramp up.
I predict gas prices will plummet when Putin croaks!

 

[daleyd]

From 2020, when gas was still cheap...

 

[JMS1972]

View attachment 347957

From 2020, when gas was still cheap...

I'm guessing Q4 is the one quarter where renewables don't cut it?

Unfortunately we use energy all year round....

 

[R Kraft]

Burning £10 notes is cheaper than gas at the moment
Having said that the price per therm has plummeted lately in the UK on the spot market.
The US and Canada can supply far more from shale it just takes time to ramp up.
I predict gas prices will plummet when Putin croaks!

I don't think the states will provide more oil or gas.
The companies are under constant attack to drive them out of business.

 

[fizzy]

View attachment 347957

From 2020, when gas was still cheap...

Norway, Sweden and Denmark have masses of hydro power so not a fair example at all. Hydro not mentioned in the table.
Have you read about how the windfarms haven't started their fixed price contracts so they are making a fortune out of high prices.

 

[fizzy]

I don't think the states will provide more oil or gas.
The companies are under constant attack to drive them out of business.

They are already ramping up and we are taking as much gas as our network can handle. We are exporting it to Europe but our pipelines are at max capacity or we could do more. Pembroke and our other terminals are maxed out.

 

[daleyd]

I'm guessing Q4 is the one quarter where renewables don't cut it?

Unfortunately we use energy all year round....

Not really, its when the report was written....

 

[daleyd]

Norway, Sweden and Denmark have masses of hydro power so not a fair example at all. Hydro not mentioned in the table.
Have you read about how the windfarms haven't started their fixed price contracts so they are making a fortune out of high prices.

Norway and Sweden have hydro power - (Norway a lot, Sweden not quite so much, but still significant) But Denmark doesn't.

The point wasn't really to include that bit, though it's an interesting aside - rather to dispute the claim that renewables can't compete on cost, which doesn't seem to tally up with the table provided.

 

[DAPPH]

I am actually a big fan of hydrogen power.
I would be all in favour of wind power IF we could store it.
Hydrogen seems the perfect solution but the efficiency is awful. You say even if only 40% effective which I suspect is about right. Sadly the wind companies will not get paid only 40%. They can't afford to build windfarms if they aren't getting top whack for the electric.
Which basically means we are paying 100% for only 40% of the leccy!

100 % for for 40 % sounds like normal business practice .
On our business enterprise training programme we were told most factory gate goods are usually 600% more by the time the punters buy them . People still purchased and so it will be with electricity unless we go back to living in trees & caves.

 

[DAPPH]

Burning £10 notes is cheaper than gas at the moment
Having said that the price per therm has plummeted lately in the UK on the spot market.
The US and Canada can supply far more from shale it just takes time to ramp up.
I predict gas prices will plummet when Putin croaks!

Not if the swivel eyes , Greta and her pals get their way .

 

[500e]

Wind is cheap till it stops for a day or a week, then it is Expensive, and is it cheap long term.
Know a Co that put up a middling size unit, blades lasted 5 years before the leading edge was eroded enough to cut the output I think I was told 15% and that was 10 years ago.
All these ideas have +- points but the world has had 100+ years honing them, to try and push the change in 10/15 years seems to me a route to Kayos

 

[DAPPH]

Read about a 20 mtr diameter merry go round wind turbine turbine 6 or so months ago , it's about 4 mtrs tall , sites on a hill , towers or tall buildings, even in the slightest of baby breath breezes they still generate reasonably well .

Vertical-Axis Wind Turbines Promise Higher Efficiency - ASME

Vertical-Axis Wind Turbines Promise Higher Efficiency, when arranged properly vertical-axis turbines have the potential to outshine horizontal turbines.

www.asme.org

 

[Morrisman]

Wind is cheap till it stops for a day or a week, then it is Expensive, and is it cheap long term.
Know a Co that put up a middling size unit, blades lasted 5 years before the leading edge was eroded enough to cut the output I think I was told 15% and that was 10 years ago.
All these ideas have +- points but the world has had 100+ years honing them, to try and push the change in 10/15 years seems to me a route to Kayos

Be interesting to see the 'cradle to grave' financial cost and environmental impact of one of the big windmills, including decommissioning and correct disposal of the parts.
And even more interesting to see if they actually ever pay for themselves, in both respects.

 

[fizzy]

Read about a 20 mtr diameter merry go round wind turbine turbine 6 or so months ago , it's about 4 mtrs tall , sites on a hill , towers or tall buildings, even in the slightest of baby breath breezes they still generate reasonably well .

Vertical-Axis Wind Turbines Promise Higher Efficiency - ASME

Vertical-Axis Wind Turbines Promise Higher Efficiency, when arranged properly vertical-axis turbines have the potential to outshine horizontal turbines.

www.asme.org

They trialled a vertical turbine at the old Burry Port power station in the 80s. They never really caught on.