Water regulations

[Dilkris]

Honestly - when I read threads such as this, (the content of which I do not doubt), I ask myself how did we ever get to where we are today?

 

[cheb]

It starts with removing a pump handle in Broad Street London, saving countless directly and indirectly. After that it's incremental change, each time being a smaller change than the last.

What's an acceptable chance of becoming ill or dying because of contaminated water?

 

[Shox Dr]

Part of the problem is likely due to the fact that the water infrastructure is so knackered and leaking that the solution is often pressure zoning. Basically they can't be arsed to fix the leaks so just fit a pressure reducing valve and drop the supply pressure in chunks of the network, so it doesn't leak so bad.

^ This happened a few weeks ago here. A large main fractured, most of Goole was either without or had almost no pressure.
To combat this they must have turned up the pressure in the system, as within hours there was water leaking out the pavements and roads all over the area. Causing even more disruption.

 

[Dilkris]

Is this because it’s (presumably) not pressure fed? What an absolute crock of crap, ****** elf and safety, how did people survive prior to it.

Well...... back in the day we had accountability and common sense - along with men who knew they were men and women who knew they were women.

 

[gaz1]

No, because it is a commercial property*. It is swings and roundabouts - a farmhouse as part of a commercial farm has benefits (tax breaks) in other areas so if you want to enjoy them, you have to obey the rules in other areas.

Donald Trump is in trouble for this - he has classified Mar a Lago as a private club for property tax purposes, but then valued it as a des. res. in order to secure a loan on it.

Being part of a commercial property, any work you do to make it meet the regulations will be a business expense, and thus able to be offset against your tax (even the washing machine itself could be seen as a business expense).

* it is a little outside this discussion but I understand there is a distinction between 'residential' farms and 'commercial' farms. I wonder what the water people have to say about a residential farm.

from what i gather on here unless you disconnect that washer every time its used you cannot use a direct plumbed in source lunacy of a pen pusher trying to push another regulation into the system that a hose must be disconnected after every use

the alternative is simple build yourself a high water tank and fill that to feed a washing machine as your within the rules just make sure its either a room access to it for easy inspection a high water tank within the buildings will have its own rules on covering

yes there are tax breaks with farm houses…..inheritance tax being one of them.

Ill let you know what they say if they come here…..regarding commercial vs residential….not sure where will fit as we dont claim farm payments, but run a business….. does this mean holiday lets and ex farm workers properties now let on a short hold tenancy will need to comply to these daft rules.

looks like the twin tub washer will be coming back. Or there will be big demand for bore holes.

if you do get pushed down them swap to rainwater collection to a tank whilst your not bound by the farm rules of collecting contaminated water from the roof 2 ibc tanks full of water will provide enough water pressure to run the washer put them at a height and you gain further water pressure

water tanks are used in low lands to gain pressure the same system that the water board uses

since the water board is enforcing it, farmers then have a right to submit planning permission under special grounds the submitting of a water tower build or water tank build on there property to feed the nescessary appliances for cleaning purposes

as that is 2 grounds of application for aproval

if refused you have the right of apeal due to the water board enforcing a tank use within the property which is ommiting circumstances

 

[Gareth J]

I'm surprised there are so many farms about without their own supply. Water rates and the poor peak flow rate means most around here have bore holes, lakes or wells to draw from.

If they wanted to keep to mains, a relatively cost efficient way to improve flow during times of high demand is to use the mains to fill a buffer tank (with a hole in below the fill point) and boost it around the network.

 

[cheb]

Well...... back in the day we had accountability and common sense - along with men who knew they were men and women who knew they were women.

Exactly when was this? Asbestos was still a problem in the late 1980s so it can't be before that. Anything later is the younger generation who are all book learned chair polishers who know nothing of the real world.

 

[Bornfree]

I'm surprised there are so many farms about without their own supply. Water rates and the poor peak flow rate means most around here have bore holes, lakes or wells to draw from.

If they wanted to keep to mains, a relatively cost efficient way to improve flow during times of high demand is to use the mains to fill a buffer tank (with a hole in below the fill point) and boost it around the network.

Abstraction licences are impossible to get around here. You can have an unlicensed 20m2 a day bore but anything larger is a no.

 

[Pete.]

Abstraction licences are impossible to get around here. You can have an unlicensed 20m2 a day bore but anything larger is a no.

Ironic for a county with such a drainage problem.

 

[Shox Dr]

Abstraction licences are impossible to get around here. You can have an unlicensed 20m2 a day bore but anything larger is a no.

That's 20,000 ltrs per day. Got to have some big undies and really bad IBS to need much.

 

[Mikes]

Personally, I believe that the water byelaws do a good job of protecting the quality and safety of water supplies and if applied correctly they aren't too onerous.
The problem comes from the many who choose to ignore them or are ignorant of their existence.
At college many years ago, we were given the true example of a farmer who mixed his chemicals for spraying on the crops by pouring them into the sprayer tank and then dropping a mains water hose into the tank and leaving it to fill for as many hours as necessary. A problem on the mains elsewhere caused a massive pressure loss so much so that another high demand user caused water / chemical to be sucked back into the main from the farmer's tank.
Even with a borehole, you should have regular microbiological tests to ensure that the water is potable.

 

[Martin Hocking]

I was going to ask how you get backflow up a hose pipe, water comes out of it then when your finished you turn it off. But I think @Mikes has answered my question.

I don’t know about how rules have changed over the years but the farmer I work for knows of pig farms where they put nipple drinkers in straight to the mains. Mixing medication for animals in the water tank used to be common practice too. In fact in the bad old days the local abattoir poisoned the bore holes in the village by pumping the liquid waste into the ground.

I’m definitely a chair polisher and have no common sense but it seems that I might still have fitted in back then too!

 

[addjunkie]

from what i gather on here unless you disconnect that washer every time its used you cannot use a direct plumbed in source lunacy of a pen pusher trying to push another regulation into the system that a hose must be disconnected after every use

the alternative is simple build yourself a high water tank and fill that to feed a washing machine as your within the rules just make sure its either a room access to it for easy inspection a high water tank within the buildings will have its own rules on covering

if you do get pushed down them swap to rainwater collection to a tank whilst your not bound by the farm rules of collecting contaminated water from the roof 2 ibc tanks full of water will provide enough water pressure to run the washer put them at a height and you gain further water pressure

water tanks are used in low lands to gain pressure the same system that the water board uses

since the water board is enforcing it, farmers then have a right to submit planning permission under special grounds the submitting of a water tower build or water tank build on there property to feed the nescessary appliances for cleaning purposes

as that is 2 grounds of application for aproval

if refused you have the right of apeal due to the water board enforcing a tank use within the property which is ommiting circumstances

Cant see it been an issue for us, we have a spring on the hill, on my land behind our house, it didn't dry up year before last during that hot summer, though not really enough to supply 3 modern properties. Id not fit a water tower, as it would be an eyesore in a national park. Id just gowith a nupress type tank, supplied from a bore hole if worst comes to worst. Were only about 100 feet above the river at the bottom of the front field, so it wouldnt need to be too deep. Next door has one.
Were on the main and our pressure is very good, but its newish and a 6 inch main 80 yards from the house, along our drive.

 

[JimmyS]

The main causes of back syphonage due to a negative pressure in the main is something like a major leak causing the main to act in effect like a syphon or someone Pumping the water from the main. Not normally allowed to pump the water main unless flowrate is very low as a normal water user, I'd need to go check the byelaws to get the flowrate but it's a miniscule flowrate. Ive only ever done it when designing pumping station for water utilities in past. Where that's done there's pressure transducers on the system to ensure it doesn't impact the upstream main. The only other time I know of where you can get a negative pressure in the main is if the fire brigade need to pump water from a hydrant or several hydrants and accidentally pull a negative pressure in the.main.

 

[sg66]

I did ask one of the inspectors. What if I take the overalls home and wash them there. He said no problem machines in a domestic house are not covered the the regulations.

Buy a poss tub fill it with hose.

 

[daleyd]

The main causes of back syphonage due to a negative pressure in the main is something like a major leak causing the main to act in effect like a syphon or someone Pumping the water from the main. Not normally allowed to pump the water main unless flowrate is very low as a normal water user, I'd need to go check the byelaws to get the flowrate but it's a miniscule flowrate. Ive only ever done it when designing pumping station for water utilities in past. Where that's done there's pressure transducers on the system to ensure it doesn't impact the upstream main. The only other time I know of where you can get a negative pressure in the main is if the fire brigade need to pump water from a hydrant or several hydrants and accidentally pull a negative pressure in the.main.

I think it’s the same principle as an eductor - a device usually found on ships that uses the flow of water (usually from a fire main) to pump water out of compartments.

They can shift huge volumes of water, so it’s easy to see how in principle they could easily syphon stuff back into the water main.

I guess even if they wouldn’t be anywhere near as efficient as a properly designed eductor I imagine if the flow paths and conditions were right

How Eductors & Ejectors work - Principle of Operation

Morris Ejector Technologies, Ltd - Venturi Products & Solutions, The principle of how venturi device works, be it an Eductor, Ejector, Heater or Desuperheater, all are based on the Bernoulli theorem and Venturi principle.

www.morrisejectors.com

 

[addjunkie]

I think it’s the same principle as an eductor - a device usually found on ships that uses the flow of water (usually from a fire main) to pump water out of compartments.

They can shift huge volumes of water, so it’s easy to see how in principle they could easily syphon stuff back into the water main.

I guess even if they wouldn’t be anywhere near as efficient as a properly designed eductor I imagine if the flow paths and conditions were right

How Eductors & Ejectors work - Principle of Operation

Morris Ejector Technologies, Ltd - Venturi Products & Solutions, The principle of how venturi device works, be it an Eductor, Ejector, Heater or Desuperheater, all are based on the Bernoulli theorem and Venturi principle.

www.morrisejectors.com

Thats about right, but the root of the issue is the infrastructure isnt up to the job, poorly maintained and under funded, because share holder Divis are more important…..this wont really change regardless of what hoops farmers etc are forced to jump through!

 

[knighty]

same thing for me at work (pet food)

mains is fed into a giant tank and then pumped out from there, was easier just to have everything fed from the tank than separate off things you're allowed (where no change of back feeding, toilets, kitchen taps etc.)

there's so many other ways the same thing could be accomplished.... but they wouldn't let me do anything else - no one way valves etc..


actually... a washing machine should be fine, because water is fed in at the top into the washing powder tray, so there's no chance of anything getting sucked back up?

years ago when we first had an inspection for it we had a machine washing cows feet (not attached to the cow), they were covered in poo etc.... but the machine washing them was fine because the water feed into it was *just* above the point where water would overflow out of the machine - so no way any could be sucked back up into the feed

 

[knighty]

And every tank you fit needs a massive slot cut through the side of it.View attachment 429904View attachment 429905

instead of that, have an ai gap between the water inlet and the top of the tank

mine has a 22mm supply into it slotted into a bit of 28mm and a screw through both (to hold the 28mm pipe up)

28mm guides the water in, but no chance of the 22 sucking anything up


or you can fit a tundish like on a mains pressure hot water tank pressure release https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293293289071

the inspector didn't like my bit of pipe and wanted me to get one.... bit of back and forth and he said it would be ok

 

[knighty]

Outside taps need a double check valve built in or in supply pipe. But they cannot have a hose or even a hose connector unless it's fitted with a DC pipe interrupter.

bit if a heads up... we tired those pipe interrupter thingies (not cheap at the time and needed about 20 of them)

they were all junk, in the bin as soon as the inspector left