Tos FN22 milling machine (Deckel clone)

[Pete.]

Pete we could build up the broken casting with braze or if you want something that matches the casting, Nickel powder

Thanks Brad that's definitely something worth looking at

It just occurred to me that it might not be obvious how this attachment is supposed to be used. Basically it fixes to the machine in place of the table and is used to hold parts for machining. Can be used with the over-arm as shown or with a part just held in a collet or there's a thread to screw on a chuck. The arm is shown vertical but it can swing 90 degrees left or right and can also tilt towards the machine 15 degrees or away from it 10 degrees. I guess this is to allow a lead angle for gears etc.

 

[Brad93]

Such a versatile machine. The amount of work you've put into it, I would think to buy that from a dealer you'd be looking at around £6k minimum.

 

[Pete.]

Such a versatile machine. The amount of work you've put into it, I would think to buy that from a dealer you'd be looking at around £6k minimum.

The main work hasn't even started yet! The machine is still stuck in Bob's yard

Have you noticed how much more stout the main casting is than the other clones or even the original Mk2 Deckel FP-1? The Deckel and Alexander have an almost square column with the motor outside where this one has a very deep main housing with all of the motor and gearing held within it. I think it's about 800kg bare. Typical over-built eastern block stuff.

Alexander Master Toolmaker

Deckel FP1 Millers Page 2

Deckel FP1, FP2, FP3, FP3L, FP4 milling machines, DZ4 machinin centre. and Deckel Tool & Cutter Grinders GSO, SO, SOE, All-models catalogue 1988

www.lathes.co.uk

 

[Milkybars]

@Pete. oh I don't know about the main work..not many machines come with this many bits !

 

[Pete.]

I found some pics of another slotting head owned by a guy in Russia. His has suffered catastrophic lubrication failure on the side and this bears out my idea that the oiling system is just inadequate. Why would you put a ball oiler at a height where half of the oiling groove is above the oiler and why would you have the groove so long that it gets un-covered at the bottom of travel letting the oil drip out? Anyway, I'm confident that using the oil gun to push heavy way oil into the slide is going to make it work a lot better.



I also found a pic of his conrod which is original and different to mine. I had wondered about my conrod being so chunky but didn't think too much of it. Then when I put the slide together I found that I could not adjust the throw to the maximum of 80mm travel without it fouling something inside the casing. 70-75mm was ok but not 80mm. This explains why - my conrod is not original and it's chunk shape causes it to foul at maximum throw. Something I will have to look at one day, probably it just needs hitting with a grinder to knock some corners off.



I also found in a pic that his conrod had been hot from lack of oil so I am going to increase the reservoir capacity within the slotting head by drilling out the oilway from the top oiler and fitting a larger receptacle like a gits flip-top oiler or something. I've put too many hours into re-doing these slides to risk having the parts tear up again.

 

[Brad93]

I found some pics of another slotting head owned by a guy in Russia. His has suffered catastrophic lubrication failure on the side and this bears out my idea that the oiling system is just inadequate. Why would you put a ball oiler at a height where half of the oiling groove is above the oiler and why would you have the groove so long that it gets un-covered at the bottom of travel letting the oil drip out? Anyway, I'm confident that using the oil gun to push heavy way oil into the slide is going to make it work a lot better.

View attachment 325980

I also found a pic of his conrod which is original and different to mine. I had wondered about my conrod being so chunky but didn't think too much of it. Then when I put the slide together I found that I could not adjust the throw to the maximum of 80mm travel without it fouling something inside the casing. 70-75mm was ok but not 80mm. This explains why - my conrod is not original and it's chunk shape causes it to foul at maximum throw. Something I will have to look at one day, probably it just needs hitting with a grinder to knock some corners off.

View attachment 325981 View attachment 325982

I also found in a pic that his conrod had been hot from lack of oil so I am going to increase the reservoir capacity within the slotting head by drilling out the oilway from the top oiler and fitting a larger receptacle like a gits flip-top oiler or something. I've put too many hours into re-doing these slides to risk having the parts tear up again.

View attachment 325984

Often when I've seen shaper rams on various forums, the ones in best condition are the ones with wick oilers. A constant oil feed.
Could you not use a setup a bit like a myford with a drip reservoir?

 

[Pete.]

Often when I've seen shaper rams on various forums, the ones in best condition are the ones with wick oilers. A constant oil feed.
Could you not use a setup a bit like a myford with a drip reservoir?

It's a good isea and I do have a spare drip oiler which I thought about using but the problem is that it won't work with the head tilted horizontal. i'm thinking that it might be best to fit another nipple and an 'oil every hour' decal.

 

[Pete.]

Standard milling head.

I've left this bit until last mostly because it contains a hypoid gear pair and I'd read horror stories of them getting torn up and being impossible to find/replace. Here's the milling head in pretty rough-looking condition. The grey blotch of paint has obviously been done to cover up damage done by someone using a hammer to set the head tilt angle.



ANyway the head has a quill with about 80mm of travel and the spiral gear drives the spindle via a 4 tooth spline. I removed the cover to show the pre-load nut for the large gear then pulled the assembly out.



First impressions are very encouraging the gears appear to be in good condition.



Cleaned-up they are actually perfect which makes me very happy. Even the original Czeck-made bearings are well greased and turn nice and smootly. All I have to do is clean it all up and re-assemble.

 

[Pete.]

I went over to Bob's place today to look the machine over and make a plan for moving it. Whilst I was there I gave it a wipe-down and sprayed it with some of Bob's rust preventative. It cleaned up pretty well.







Bob said put a plug on it and see how she goes so we did. It fired up right away and I went through all of the controls, which all worked perfectly.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

It's now all wrapped up ready for moving day. My very great thanks to Bob for taking care of it for me for a while

 

[Martin-Sy]

Excellent, can't wait to see it when you've finished with it!
My F4 only has power feeds on X and Z, so you're better off. You've also got a good cache of attachments. Where did it come from if you don't mind me asking?

 

[awemawson]

Very nice Pete

Now I bet that you're going to take all that nice patina off it

 

[Pete.]

Excellent, can't wait to see it when you've finished with it!
My F4 only has power feeds on X and Z, so you're better off. You've also got a good cache of attachments. Where did it come from if you don't mind me asking?

It was advertised on Facebook, spotted by a member here. A steam museum from down Liphook way.

Very nice Pete

Now I bet that your'e going to take all that nice patina off it

Yes I'm going to re-arrange the letters - from PATINATED to PAINTED

 

[Martin-Sy]

Painted and GREEN!!

 

[sako243]

My very great thanks to Bob for taking care of it for me for a while

You're lucky he's run out of space because he was very tempted to keep both yours and mine

 

[Pete.]

I had to remove the slotting head slide for painting tomorrow so I thought I would address the fouling conrod and another thing I wanted to look at was the conrod bearings oiling because they didn't make sense to me and I've figured out why.

The conrod problem was easy to spot because I painted the inside of the housing. The corner of the big end of the rod was hitting a casting defect inside the housing.



I didn't want to grind the lump so I filed a large bevel on the rod. Now it doesn't hit anything even at full stroke. Shame that someone went to all that work for it to foul AND bend the drive shaft but now it's all sorted.



Another problem was at the small end of the rod. There was a small hole drilled in the rod with a decent countersink in it which you would expect to find if it was an oiling point. There's also a blind hole in the pin but an annular groove around it which would work for moving oil but no cross groove which you would expect if it was a moving joint. the thing is that there is no facility to put oil into the end of that rod.



Also the larger end of the pin which goes into the bush in the slide has just a plain hole with no annular groove so unless that hole is aligned with the slot in the bush no oil will get into it, or at least very little.



I found the answer by looking through some schematics in the user manuals I had received from a Czech guy. The 'oil hole' in the rod is supposed to be tapped for a retaining screw which locates in the blind hole and holds that pin firm, keeping the oiling hole on the big journal lined up with the vertical oilway in the slide and the other oil hole (opposite the blind hole) in the small journal lined up with the one that passes down through the rod. They had just not finished the rod by tapping that hole and fitting a grub screw.



Here's the schematic, the retainer is the red bit and the oil path is shown in blue.



Sorting it out was a simple matter of tapping the hole and fitting a M4 bolt with a small taper ground on the end. Now all of the oil holes line up and the pin held firmly in it's proper orientation.

 

[JMS1972]

I had to remove the slotting head slide for painting tomorrow so I thought I would address the fouling conrod and another thing I wanted to look at was the conrod bearings oiling because they didn't make sense to me and I've figured out why.

The conrod problem was easy to spot because I painted the inside of the housing. The corner of the big end of the rod was hitting a casting defect inside the housing.

View attachment 327093

I didn't want to grind the lump so I filed a large bevel on the rod. Now it doesn't hit anything even at full stroke. Shame that someone went to all that work for it to foul AND bend the drive shaft but now it's all sorted.

View attachment 327094

Another problem was at the small end of the rod. There was a small hole drilled in the rod with a decent countersink in it which you would expect to find if it was an oiling point. There's also a blind hole in the pin but an annular groove around it which would work for moving oil but no cross groove which you would expect if it was a moving joint. the thing is that there is no facility to put oil into the end of that rod.

View attachment 327095

Also the larger end of the pin which goes into the bush in the slide has just a plain hole with no annular groove so unless that hole is aligned with the slot in the bush no oil will get into it, or at least very little.

View attachment 327097

I found the answer by looking through some schematics in the user manuals I had received from a Czech guy. The 'oil hole' in the rod is supposed to be tapped for a retaining screw which locates in the blind hole and holds that pin firm, keeping the oiling hole on the big journal lined up with the vertical oilway in the slide and the other oil hole (opposite the blind hole) in the small journal lined up with the one that passes down through the rod. They had just not finished the rod by tapping that hole and fitting a grub screw.

View attachment 327096

Here's the schematic, the retainer is the red bit and the oil path is shown in blue.

View attachment 327102

Sorting it out was a simple matter of tapping the hole and fitting a M4 bolt with a small taper ground on the end. Now all of the oil holes line up and the pin held firmly in it's proper orientation.

View attachment 327098

Great detective work

 

[RichardM]

It's good that they have diagrams in the manuals.

 

[Pete.]

It's good that they have diagrams in the manuals.

Yes the manuals are great - if you can read German, Czech or Russian

But you're right the manuals have good diagrams it even details the module and tooth count of all the internal gears for the power transmission and feeds etc.

 

[Brad93]

Yes the manuals are great - if you can read German, Czech or Russian

But you're right the manuals have good diagrams it even details the module and tooth count of all the internal gears for the power transmission and feeds etc.

Proper manuals where machines are meant to be repaired, not like British manufacturers that just want to sell you parts.

 

[Pete.]

Proper manuals where machines are meant to be repaired, not like British manufacturers that just want to sell you parts.

Damn right, I have the German version and the Czech version and the Czech one is a lot better, even has the wiring schematic.

So, today I have been figuring out how to wire the 2-speed motor to a VFD and I think I've got it figured but I've never done a 2-speed one before so I'm putting it up here to see if anyone has any constructive input.

The machine has a motor that has 6 wires which can be connected to make it a 4-pole motor or a 2-pole motor, both 415V input. It's called a Dahlander winding. I've got the schematic from the manual and mapped where each connection goes for the two forward speeds and two reverse speeds. Low speed has the motor wired in 4-pole delta and high speed makes it a 2-pole star.



Now the two top ones suit me a basic delta 4-pole winding EXCEPT that it's configured for 415v input. It's 4-pole so slow speed and I can speed the motor up with higher frequency if I need to. Only problem is that VFD is 240V input so would lose huge amounts of power connected to that motor. What I want to do, though I can't until after I get the thing home, is pull the motor apart and see if I can re-connect it like this:

I figure if I do only one pair at a time I can make sure I keep the winding orientation right. Finding the correct ends will be easy with an ohm meter - it will read 5 times the resistance one way compared to the other. Splitting the winding pairs and putting them in parallel will put the correct (more or less) voltage across them and the direction of current will be the same in series as in parallel so they should be 'pushing' in the same direction.

That's what I'm hoping anyway. If anyone sees a flaw in my plan please speak up. I know there's a small risk of voltage spikes etc from the VFD but I'll take that chance. If it goes bang I'll swap the motor out.