"Irish" English Wheel or Wheeling Machine?

[cammy9r]

Good job, im still clearing a space in the workshop to set up welding (safety and the like). Normally just use the wee brick garage at the side of the house but as the neighbours are home now I dont want to be the noisy bugger. Not everyone can appreciate the sweetness of an angle grinder singing .
The platen wheel is too high up against the frame, you are going to have really really flat thumbs. I have seen some machines where the top wheel is adjustable too, time for a solution.
I did wonder about clearance to the left of the wheel for curvature. I know 98% of the time the panel is curving down but i have seen times when the panel has been put in 'upside' down for reverse curves. Admittedly my knowledge of using a wheel is a few hours at college 25 years ago, the rest has been the internet, which is reassuringly a reliable source of information .

 

[Dcal]

I'll do what I can with this one.
By removing material, including the bottom bolt, I should get the most of 2 inches.
I could square it off and get a bit more but I'm not inclined to do that.
If it doesn't work I'll need a bigger redesign.

I can move the stub axle down, but would need to make a stub with a smaller base so I could weld it to the backing plate while missing the bolt holes.
I could also just use a bolt and drill and weld from both sides of the backing plate.
That's all very dooable.

Looking at wheels on the web, the Edwards Wheel doesn't seem to have much clearance, so maybe I just need to keep clear of that area.
Probably not a great idea to be wheeling past the anvils anyway as old flat thumbs told me.

 

[Dcal]

Good job, im still clearing a space in the workshop to set up welding (safety and the like). Normally just use the wee brick garage at the side of the house but as the neighbours are home now I dont want to be the noisy bugger. Not everyone can appreciate the sweetness of an angle grinder singing .
The platen wheel is too high up against the frame, you are going to have really really flat thumbs. I have seen some machines where the top wheel is adjustable too, time for a solution.
I did wonder about clearance to the left of the wheel for curvature. I know 98% of the time the panel is curving down but i have seen times when the panel has been put in 'upside' down for reverse curves. Admittedly my knowledge of using a wheel is a few hours at college 25 years ago, the rest has been the internet, which is reassuringly a reliable source of information .

All very valid points.
I'm probably giving too much consideration to what it looks like, but it's steel, so it's easy to chop and change.
If I have the heart to start chopping after it all painted up is another matter.

I'm lucky I've a good bit of distance between me and my neighbors and within reason I can let the grinder sing and boy has it been singing recently.

 

[Dcal]

Well nothing for it but to cut the frame down to size. (or at least closer to size)
This is the plan

The front section is 20mm thick and there is no way my plasma will cope with that so I has to get the grinder out.
It can cope with 10mm but only after I changed the cutting tip.
Spot the difference.

This is the new basic shape, I just need to weld it and grind it to shape.

Line it up again

See if it fits and weld it up.

There isn't a huge amount of clearance but I think there is enough.
I could cut and plate the corner off the frame to the rear of the stub axle but I don't think it will be necessary.

The thrust bearings for the adjuster arrived on Saturday so i can now sort that properly as well.

 

[Dcal]

To get this finished, I made a few mods to the adjuster.
First I welded a nut and washer to the thread bar.

The thread bar is galvanised to stop it rusting, or more correctly because it is all I had laying around.
Welding was a bit fumy but it's stuck on, even if it is a bit porous.

Next into the lathe and square off the weld to form a seat for the big (25mm) thrust bearing.
Then drilled and tapped the end for an M10 cap head.

Instead of welding an end plate into the box, I decided to make the base plate the same size (or slightly under) the outside of the box. I have no way of holding a long, for me, length of box and drilling a hole in the center, so I though I had a better chance of getting it right with this method.

I cut a 50 x50 odd square of 12mm plate with the grinder and filed 2 adjoining sides square with a hand file.
I was then able to use these sides as a reference to bring it down to size on the shaper.
Then cut shallow pockets to seat the 25mm and 10mm thrust bearings.

I clocked the base plate in the 4 jaw and used a bung to center the other end of the box in the tail stock.

I got it as square as I could before tacking it in place, then turning it around to weld it fully (to keep the heat out of the chuck and the lathe spindle)

A quick rub with a flap disk and it's a neat fit in the guides.
To get access to install and tighten the bolt I made a slot in the box.

I sanded the mill-scale off the sides of the box and it's ready for installation.
Before assembly I tried to flatten the discs where it bolts together.
The middle one, I could straighten in the lathe.

The other two i had to do my best with a 9" grinder and a file.
Not perfect but far better than they were.

Then its a simple matter of reassembly, welding the lower anvil mount to the box and giving it a whirl.

And I can confirm it does work as intended.
I've little to compare it to (first and last time I used a wheel was almost a year ago) but it can bend steel and from my limited experience it seems to works great.
If I remember correctly it has a similar feel to the ones at MPH Panels but that could just be wishful thinking

I've no alloy or clean steel, so I sanded the paint off a bit of scrap and with a number two anvil (second most flat) it was very easy to raise a crown.

I'll see how easy it is to bring it back down again but that will be more down to the operator I think.

For now I can call this done and get a coat of paint on it.

It's been a lot of work but I'm delighted with how this has turned out.

 

[gordon stephenson]

Burning the midnight oil again Damian, Great thread and photographs, A lot of fabrication and engineering going on there, And it works a treat, You should be pleased and proud of the whole build, Good luck when its in use for your future projects.

 

[Wallace]

Thinking out of the box with the box section on the lathe. That crown has come up nice and even looking, you must be well pleased to see that after all the hard work. A friend of mine did a wheeling course, bought a small wheel and made a new roof for his Morris 10 to remove the sunroof. He has offered me a loan of it to have a play.

 

[Dcal]

Thanks Gordon and Wallace,
Took longer than I estimated (don't they always) but very pleased with how's it's turned out.
Need to get the final push on and paint it up so I can start practicing.
This is the point where I usually lose interest but will try to keep at it

Thanks all for the interest and encouragement, makes a difference when things aren't going the way you want.

 

[gn3dr]

Serious amount of work there.
I don't come on here much but should do a bit more often. I also built an "Irish" English wheel - other end of the country though down in Kerry.
Build thread here http://www.backroads.ie/forums/showthread.php?26136-My-English-Wheel-Build

Those Justin Baker wheel and anvils look nice.

I also bought a hardened set from that same Adam0000 guy that was mentioned in the thread and I was very dissappointed. Firstly there was inclusions in the surface of the wheel. He apologised for that saying he must have forgotten to clean them up after hardening. I figured no big deal and I would polish them out when I built the wheel.
Unfortunatley there was a large time gap then before I actually built the wheel (only finished it in the last month) and it was only then I realised that the upper wheel wasn't concentric! Also the flat anvil had a ridge on one edge which leaves marks in panels.

I might invetsigate the Justin Baker ones.

 

[Seadog]

That looks like it could have rolled plates for the Titanic

 

[Dcal]

Hi @gn3dr welcome to the forum
Just read your thread and that's a serious wheel and a great build.
Nice workshop as well and some serious kit and work being done from it.

It's a real bummer about your anvils.
Not that I know anything, but a wheel like yours could do with bigger diameter lower anvils.
The ones I got from Justin are round and concentric as far as I can tell and I think the quality is very good.
One thing I noticed is there are fairly wide flats on them and more than I expected.
Seems to be two schools on the correct type to use but I would have thought full radius anvils would move metal quicker.(probably leave more ridges too)
The anvils I got aren't hardened and they are big enough that I have the option of re-machining them but I don't have the skills so I don't want to mess one up just yet,
Might try making one from scratch to see how it goes.

Anyways please stick around and post some of you builds on here, there seems to be some very interesting stuff going on.

By the by, I just joined up to backroads.ie, maybe see you over there sometime as well.

 

[gn3dr]

Hi @gn3dr welcome to the forum
Just read your thread and that's a serious wheel and a great build.
Nice workshop as well and some serious kit and work being done from it.

It's a real bummer about your anvils.
Not that I know anything, but a wheel like yours could do with bigger diameter lower anvils.
The ones I got from Justin are round and concentric as far as I can tell and I think the quality is very good.
One thing I noticed is there are fairly wide flats on them and more than I expected.
Seems to be two schools on the correct type to use but I would have thought full radius anvils would move metal quicker.(probably leave more ridges too)
The anvils I got aren't hardened and they are big enough that I have the option of re-machining them but I don't have the skills so I don't want to mess one up just yet,
Might try making one from scratch to see how it goes.

Anyways please stick around and post some of you builds on here, there seems to be some very interesting stuff going on.

By the by, I just joined up to backroads.ie, maybe see you over there sometime as well.

Hi Dcal. Yeah I agree, when I got them, even though I knew what size they were I was a bit surpised at how small they looked. But they do look tiny on my wheel. However I made the wheel with the idea that I may upgrade them for larger diameter so I only have to make a new cradle and I'm good to go. I too would have loved a set of Hoosier wheels but the cost is too high for me.
My workshop is a mess!

I also couldnt decide on flats vs full radius but having used themI think teh flats are probably OK. But I think I also need a full radius round anvil just specifically for planishing into a curve.

Backroads is pretty good forum.
The first project I've attempted with my wheel is a cafe racer tank which is also on Backroads
http://www.backroads.ie/forums/showthread.php?29735-Yamaha-XJ750-Project-Cafe-Racer-type-thing

 

[Dcal]

After getting it up and working I just took it all apart again and trailed it outside to get it ready for paint.
Just noticed the weld metal was rusting more than the parent metal.

Welded up the most of the undercuts and scars and cleaned up the joints and corners.

I sanded off the paint where there was only little bits left, but I left the large areas as the paint is good and to C5 spec.

Just sweep blasted the remaining paint and blasted the exposed steel.

Cleaned up well.
I spent more time on the stand than anything else.

I didn't get it finished (bad light stops play) but if it stays dry, I'll get a coat of primer on it tomorrow

 

[cammy9r]

only then I realised that the upper wheel wasn't concentric!

Hi, just read through your post . I hope my wheel/anvil set does not have that kind of runout, I have no way to correct it and will have to return them.

Dcal, the wheeling machine has turned out well. Is it getting a tricked out paintjob or grey floorpaint like what i do (always have loads of floor paint for some reason)

 

[Dcal]

@cammy9r I got into the habit of painting my tools (when I do) Ford Tractor Blue.

This will get a coat of zinc rich epoxy (Jotun Barrier 90) then I'll fill it out the lumps and bumps and try and give it a nice simple 2K gloss finish.
It might have to live outside when I'm not using it so I'll need to protect it well.

I've just found an old ammo box about the right size that I can fix up and use to store the anvils and adjusters so they can be kept inside.

 

[Dcal]

Not far away now but not much to show since the last update.
I've been spending a lot of time, if not watching paint dry, then at least waiting on it.

First coat was Jotun Barrier 80 which is a sort of two pack epoxy"galvafroid".
I buried the paint on to any bits with pits or scars, which was a bad idea as it doesn't dry particularly quickly or sand well.

Next was a coat of Jotun Penguard ZP. You can still see the lumps in the first coat.

Then it was fill and sand the most of it off again

Before giving it another coat of Penguard

Then sanding and filling any final spots.

And a final undercoat of Jotan 87, applied as thick as I could put it on, which I think is a great spray on filler. Not sure Jotun would agree but it works for me.
The finish isn't bad (even if I say so myself) but I will sand it after a good few days drying to show up any remaining problem areas and leave it nice for the top coat.

Also give the adjuster and bolt on bits a lick as well.

Probably a bit of overkill for a structural steel tool, but if a jobs worth doing and all that.
If this weather keeps up I should have it in blue at the weekend, although I quite like the grey.

 

[Beeezer]

Lovely job!

 

[Brad93]

I should of taken some pictures the other day.

a neighbour of mine used to build entire cars, Lagondas and the like of the 20s/30s. From ground up starting with an old rusted chassis and any bits he could find.

he has a beautiful English wheel. Not sure of the make but cast iron probably weighing a tonne at least. 6/7ft high it stands.

 

[Dcal]

Thanks @Beeezer I appreciate the kind words.

@Brad93 does you neighbour's wheel look like the one in the link below?
I might be a Ranalah, which I sort of copied because I used one on a course last year.
I didn't take measurements or anything it just ended up that way.

Lotus30 on here has one.
https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/english-wheeling-machine.47529/page-4#post-902687

They are a thing of beauty and look just right.

I must admit when I saw you had replied to the thread that my first thought was you were going to rip the **** out of my welding.
We can't all be good.

 

[tom2207]

I should of taken some pictures the other day.

a neighbour of mine used to build entire cars, Lagondas and the like of the 20s/30s. From ground up starting with an old rusted chassis and any bits he could find.

he has a beautiful English wheel. Not sure of the make but cast iron probably weighing a tonne at least. 6/7ft high it stands.

Or a big old Edwards one ,, I know where there is one sitting in a chicken shed , its sat for forty years or more ,, never moved , guy will never sell it , and never use it.