"Irish" English Wheel or Wheeling Machine?

  1. Dcal Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Antrim Northern Ireland
    I've been thinking about making an English Wheel for a long time.

    Long is a relative term.
    It seems like a long time but the truth is I had no idea that such a thing existed until I started reading this forum.
    The only wheels I've seen in the flesh were at MPH's wheeling course in Cornwall when I went for a beginners course last year.
    Even before the course I wanted one, after it i was sure I needed one in my life.
    I want to make wings for one of my next project, (if I ever get around to it) so I can even convince myself it's a sensible idea. (I know it's not)

    Being the sort of person I am I decided to make one from scratch.

    Wheels are very thin on the ground over here (I still don't know of anyone that has one locally) and since I know nothing about them nor have anything to compare with, I won't really know if it's any use until I finish it. (and even then I'll just be guessing.)
    This should steer me in the direction of a tried and tested design but where's the fun in that.
    I would like to go back to MPH when I've got to grips with my wheel and compare it to a proper one, but this is a real learning curve.

    When you start looking, there is lots of information on making wheels.
    On allmetalshaping.com there is a tutorial on building the imperial range of wheels.
    http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=980

    On metalmeet.com Anders Norgaard went to the bother of providing dimensions for a range of throat depths so it seemed churlish to ignore the work he put in.
    http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9061&highlight=english+wheel+plans

    I could have copied @Burdekin excellent looking Scottish Wheel made out of profiled plate on this very forum.
    https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/scottishish-wheel-build.39166/

    But when I pulled a 3m length of 200 x 150 x 10mm box out of a skip I thought it would be a good (and more importantly) cheap basis for a box section frame.
    If it turns out pants I can always weigh it in and start again.
    It will also be a great practice piece for welding butt joints so it won't all be lost if i do.

    I started with Ander's drawing of Kerry Pinkerton's Imperial wheel.

    IMG_0784.JPG

    I don't do cad or sketch up so pen and paper is my preferred tools for sketching.
    I do know people that do and could get them to draw a mm precise drawing but my fabrication skill are such that I would not be able to make it to the dimensions so whats the point?

    I could just make it as drawn, but I do like to change things just for the sake of it.
    I can't really understand people who buy plans to build simple stuff, but that's just me.

    I like the tapered strut for the lower anvil mount, and it looks similar to a Ranalah Wheel (like Geoff's at MPH)
    I'm not so taken with the horizontal top beam, which looks heavy and out of proportion to the lower member.
    The Americans do seem to like very stiff wheels that can apply massive pressure, so I can understand why it is sized as shown, but the cast iron wheels all seem to have a fair amount of spring built in so I thought I'd arch and taper this as well.
    Cast is stiffer than steel but it is also a lot weaker so there will be a lot of trial and error here for me.

    IMG_0786.JPG

    IMG_0787.JPG

    What I ended up with when I decided on height and throat depth and used the section size I have was this.


    IMG_0812.JPG

    It has a throat or just over a meter and an over all height of 1.7m so is a big lump and maybe not stiff enough but I can add stiffness if I need to, or as I said scrap it and start again.
    All the welds will be full penetration (or as close as I can make them)
    No doubt it will change in the making and on reflection I've just copied Geoff's Ranalah, but that's not much of a surprise and maybe no bad thing.
    We will see.

    It would be great to get advice and comments from experts and amateurs alike.
     
    8ob, optima21, Mick Annick and 3 others like this.
  2. gt6s Member

    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    Newtownards Co Down Northern Ireland
    Saw a huge one being scrapped at my local Shorts plant. I enquired. They were not allowed to sell it as their scrap is security sensitive. Must be destroyed.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  3. Dcal Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Antrim Northern Ireland
    That would break your heart.
    They were probably worried the Chinese or Russians would copy this novel, new, top secret technology.
     
  4. Burdekin

    Burdekin Chief Bodger

    Messages:
    4,884
    Location:
    Aberdeen
    Good stuff. Get your wheel and adjuster sorted first before making the frame. Kerry’s box frame design is a excellent way to make one, main thing is controlling distortion and twist when welding it, get it all tacked up and use a plum line or some other method to ensure she stays within tolerance. Looking forward to the build.
     
    daedalusminos, slim_boy_fat and Parm like this.
  5. Dcal Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Antrim Northern Ireland
    Thanks @Burdekin
    I was thinking of using a plumb for the final welds (I probably read it on one of the forums)
    It's that heavy I need to build it in sections and then try and keep it straight for the final few welds in position.
    Certainly thinking of Kerry's wheel adjusting frame, it's the sort of adjuster I can make with what I already have.

    I've made a start but not gone beyond the point where I can tweak things yet.

    Don't think I can run to your fancy Hozier wheel, anvils and adjuster set.
    What usually happen is I'll try and make one, then buy a cheap set, then end up buying the Hosier ones.

    Do you know what the Justin Baker wheel and anvils are like?
    Can you even get just these bits on their own?
     
    Burdekin likes this.
  6. Burdekin

    Burdekin Chief Bodger

    Messages:
    4,884
    Location:
    Aberdeen
    I thought Hoosier had shut but a search shows the website is still there.

    Not sure if Justin sells parts, seen kits on eBay but don’t know the quality. No idea of the price but you could get them machined. I think the standard size wheels and Anvils are what were used in Edwards wheels.
     
  7. AndersK Member

    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Sweden
    What I've heard the anvils from Justin Baker is good but Hoosier has better quality.
    I have a few smaller from Hoosier and have used some of his larger sets and they are great.

    Joe is still in business, he announced he would end it but decided to go on but with less products.

    Anders Norgaard is a great guy and metalshaper, we have met a couple of times bashing metal together. Sadly it's been a while now.
     
    stuvy likes this.
  8. RonA

    RonA specialist in repairing sealed for life equipment

    Messages:
    1,457
    Location:
    Stockton on Tees, UK
    Was it a “stealth” English wheel?
    RonA
     
    gt6s and Dcal like this.
  9. frank horton

    frank horton V twins are great but 4"s rule.........

    Messages:
    1,575
    Location:
    Soon 2 B Crete
    just askin......
    what about getting an RSJ rolled to make the frame........
    needs to be a proper firm tho.......
    I know the one in North Manchester rolls complete circles with very larg RSJ so the smaller stuff should be easy...."er"......
    they quoted me for a 5.5m waterwheel circular frames........
    saves all the cutting and welding.....???????
    interested in what the panel thinks.....
     
    Shox Dr, anjum, Dcal and 1 other person like this.
  10. wyn

    wyn Member

    Messages:
    3,052
    Location:
    Cardiff
    I built one a couple of years ago with a set of Justin baker wheels.

    Thread here.
     
    8ob, Shox Dr, Dcal and 1 other person like this.
  11. Burdekin

    Burdekin Chief Bodger

    Messages:
    4,884
    Location:
    Aberdeen
    I’ve met Anders a couple of times too and been to his home workshop. He is one of the good guys for sure.
     
  12. hazzabo Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Wokingham, United Kingdom
    I bought a set of anvils from Justin Baker about 5 years ago and made a small wheel for my father. The quality was very good.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  13. Fazerruss

    Fazerruss Member

    Messages:
    2,456
    West Yorkshire
    I've started making one. This is out of 100x100×6 SHS
    20190308_165555.jpg 20190308_165720.jpg 20190308_170606.jpg 20190308_165715.jpg 20190308_170024.jpg

    I'm going to make my own anvils and quick release mechanism.
    Got a nice lump of bright bar for the top wheel 150mm diameter.
    20200326_200911.jpg
     
    8ob, Shox Dr, optima21 and 4 others like this.
  14. Tom O Member

    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Canada
    When we built one we had the lower anvil adjustable with a kick wheel also the lower anvil had a quick release so you could remove for fitting and return to the same settings the top wheel also was adjustable for operator height.
    We used 4 tpi acme thread which was a bit aggressive and in hindsight would have been better with 8 tpi.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  15. Dcal Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Antrim Northern Ireland
    So we have a Welsh one, a Scottish one and hopefully soon an Irish one.
    Any English ones out there.

    Was writing this when @Fazerruss just posted.
    We now have a full set, at least in construction.

    And now @Tom O comes in with another one from the Commonwealth.

    This English Wheel Bingo could become a thing.

    Any updates on how they work or what you've made with them?
     
    Burdekin likes this.
  16. Dcal Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Location:
    Antrim Northern Ireland
    @Tom O Any photos of your wheel and build?
    I never thought there would be so many wheel builders on here.
     
  17. wyn

    wyn Member

    Messages:
    3,052
    Location:
    Cardiff
    I haven't really done much with mine.
    Things just seemed to go in a different direction.
    Still got it all in the shed though.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  18. Tom O Member

    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Canada
    I’ll take a look and see.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  19. hazzabo Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Wokingham, United Kingdom
    Fazerruss, my frame was very similar to yours. The anvil kit I bought used a large bearing as the upper wheel. My dad has used it for repair sections in various cars and left it at the car restoration place he worked at when he retired. It’s still in regular use.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  20. truckdoctor

    truckdoctor Member

    Messages:
    129
    dorset
    I've made 3 over the years, only for small pieces but the principle is the same. The first was using a frame from an old tyre vulcanizer (bought for £1 at a Beaulieu auction) that used old forklift truck wheels. It worked well but was very heavy and not used much so sold off.
    Recently made one using a G clamp and a few shaped bearings and another that uses the drill press. I've
    had success with mine but only for small pieces P1060307.JPG P1060299.JPG P1060623.JPG
    The underlying principle seems to be to make things so tough and heavy to prevent flexing in the frame that the machine ends up massive and takes up loads space. I did come across this on the net an idea that answers this problem and seems to be a very good solution. This uses a cheap ready made frame and rollers wedged between the roof and floor of his workshop.
     
    barking mat, 8ob, Ali and 8 others like this.
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