Installing a whole new central heating system - options?

[julianf]

Should you be using PEX on Rayburn system? Our Rayburn used to get so hot the water would boil and we would have to run taps to cool it down!

Rayburn to store is 1" black and 28mm copper.
Store has overtemp apparatus.
Pex only happens post-store.

 

[Dieselman 63]

To be honest I don't think central heating is necessary at all, and having lived without it for eight years now I felt tremendously mollycoddled when I went back to the UK. I had to open a window!

We have loft and wall insulation and a large wood burner in the central room. We had a heat pump and a dvs system which was supposed to blow hot air around the house - worked great if you stood under the heat pump, crap in the bedrooms though.

On the downside, the windows are streaming with condensation in the winter and your bed is icy cold to get into, but like I say it's something I've gotten over. I can definitely justify a central heating system for big buildings but for home use it seems overkill.

Definitely +1 on aga/rayburn stoves with the wetback option though, I've used one and they are excellent. When I build my own house I will probably install one.

 

[Burdekin]

I'd put central heating back in, it will also add value having it and they are an easy and efficient way of heating an entire house. £11k seems awfully a lot though. I'd be interested to see the breakdown of costs, and how much labor they envisage; from fitting a new tank, to running all the new piping etc.

 

[julianf]

I’m glad Forum’s like this exist to put things in perspective!

Getting a few more plumbers round to see what they can do. Will probably end up getting all the bits myself. Does the trade tend to pay full whack for boilers? The heatslave 2 is £2.3k+ on its own!

Two questions -

Do you want everything new,

and

Do you want someone else to do all the work?

A lot of the suggestions in the thread are redundant if you answer "yes" to both of the above.

 

[sg66]

location has a lot to do with the price

It w

Two questions -

Do you want everything new,

and

Do you want someone else to do all the work?

A lot of the suggestions in the thread are redundant if you answer "yes" to both of the above.

And some of them are, I could hire a van supply all the stuff travel the length of the country charge 7k and still make good money on the job.

 

[8ob]

He’s come back with £11,700. Going to get another plumber around for comparison, my eyes were on stalks at first but I suppose it’s a lot of work. Do you think that’s a fair price?

Was this man driving a transit ( with motorway maintenance stickers all over it) towing his home, were his eyes rolling around in his head looking at everything other than you? did he also offer to tarmac the drive and fix your roof?

Bob

 

[Phil_D]

Two questions -

Do you want everything new,

and

Do you want someone else to do all the work?

A lot of the suggestions in the thread are redundant if you answer "yes" to both of the above.

Don’t mind a second hand boiler and tank provided they’re not too old, and yeah I’d need someone to do the work as I work away during the week and need a warm house before my preggers mrs drops!

 

[julianf]

Domestic supplies under a certain size do not require bunding - there are plenty of fine condition single skin tanks about for pocket change, or free. I got one for free, and one for £20.

Buy a used condensing boiler. Oil boilers are not like gas - all the clever electronics are on the burner, and virtually every boiler uses riello rdb1 units. So just buy a boiler with one of those burners. The water jacket wont rot out for decades if correctly installed (plenty of boilers from the 70s still working away) and, if they burner ever does go, just grab another - theyre so very common that theyre all over ebay all the time.

So, in that, youve spent maybe £150 on the pair? As i said before, rads are pocket change from tool station, delivered to your door. They come with mounting and bleed valves.

Get the kit, and get someone into do the works. Sure, some will be reluctant, as they will be wanting the massive mark-up on parts, but some people are happy just to have some work.

 

[Phil_D]

Also if there’s any plumbers near Chard (South somerset) on here then feel free to drop me a PM!

 

[gaz1]

if your not happy with the price build your own system

this one is massive 2,600 gallon tank but uses a rocket stove to heat the water

http://woodstoves.forumotion.co.uk/t850p25-2600-gallon-rocket-water-heater

 

[Phil_D]

Domestic supplies under a certain size do not require bunding - there are plenty of fine condition single skin tanks about for pocket change, or free. I got one for free, and one for £20.

Buy a used condensing boiler. Oil boilers are not like gas - all the clever electronics are on the burner, and virtually every boiler uses riello rdb1 units. So just buy a boiler with one of those burners. The water jacket wont rot out for decades if correctly installed (plenty of boilers from the 70s still working away) and, if they burner ever does go, just grab another - theyre so very common that theyre all over ebay all the time.

So, in that, youve spent maybe £150 on the pair? As i said before, rads are pocket change from tool station, delivered to your door. They come with mounting and bleed valves.

Get the kit, and get someone into do the works. Sure, some will be reluctant, as they will be wanting the massive mark-up on parts, but some people are happy just to have some work.

I’ve actually already got an old
Oil tank in the garden But the plumber who gave me the quote said He didn’t think it had bunding which is why he factored in for a new one. What checks can I do on the existing tank to see if it’s going to be a go-er? It may have to be relocated as it’s currently on the edge of one of the tiers of my garden behind a shed, looks like it would be a bit dodgy filling it up.

I’m happy to go for a second hand condensing boiler but I honestly don’t know a thing about them? Are they rated differently for the number of rads you intend to heat? What are some popular models which I could search for?

 

[julianf]

re: tank bunding -

it may, or may not be different if you are relocating the tank (ie different rules for 'new' installs) but building control does not require bunding for domestic tanks less than, i think, 2500ltrs (but do check).

again you would also need to look at if moving the existing tank counts as a new install, and if the rules are different then, but i kind of suspect they probably are not.

they will also be different if you are witin so many meters of a water course and stuff like that.

...but even still, second hand bunded tanks come up on ebay too, just not quite as cheap. id still think you would be able to buy one for a couple of hundred quid, vs about £1200 for new.

re: boilers -

you need to know the kw that you require and then go from there. look at the cost of the flue that goes with whatever system, as that is where the companies really make their money, and that may be enough to make you choose one unit against another.

if you can site the unit where you can just have a low level balanced flue through the wall behind or to the side of the unit, then that is way cheaper and easier than other options, but you need to look at the buildings control pdf as to accepted entry points (ie not directly opposit your nighbours kitchen window, etc.etc. - theyre all common sense, but the docs have all the clearences)

If you can use a low level flue, then the boiler will probably be sold with that, but if not, try and buy one with the parts included.


Make sure its a riello burner. Theyre not great burners or anthing, but, as above, theyre so common place, that spare units are easy to come by. You can see them in the photos - red plastic cover.

Im sure i linked to some (then) current ebay sales earlier in the thread, but you need to know the KW that you require - i guess the easiest way to work that out is to look at the quote you got, and see what they spec'ed!

My friend wanted me to find him a condensor for his swimming pool before christmass. I found him this -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162817555805?ul_noapp=true

Sure, its scruffy, but who cares for a pool boiler room. I think he purchased it on that ebay 20% off day too, so didnt even pay the £40 end price.

He was replacing an older boiler that i gave him because he has swapped from using heavier fuel (which the old boiler was good for, but now hes on kerosene, he may as well get a condenser)

 

[gaz1]

i remembered this one dont know if it still exists

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/free-burner-unit-inc-fan.75883/

and another

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/oil-pump-burner-from-boiler.74095/

 

[Phil_D]

re: tank bunding -

it may, or may not be different if you are relocating the tank (ie different rules for 'new' installs) but building control does not require bunding for domestic tanks less than, i think, 2500ltrs (but do check).

again you would also need to look at if moving the existing tank counts as a new install, and if the rules are different then, but i kind of suspect they probably are not.

they will also be different if you are witin so many meters of a water course and stuff like that.

...but even still, second hand bunded tanks come up on ebay too, just not quite as cheap. id still think you would be able to buy one for a couple of hundred quid, vs about £1200 for new.

re: boilers -

you need to know the kw that you require and then go from there. look at the cost of the flue that goes with whatever system, as that is where the companies really make their money, and that may be enough to make you choose one unit against another.

if you can site the unit where you can just have a low level balanced flue through the wall behind or to the side of the unit, then that is way cheaper and easier than other options, but you need to look at the buildings control pdf as to accepted entry points (ie not directly opposit your nighbours kitchen window, etc.etc. - theyre all common sense, but the docs have all the clearences)

If you can use a low level flue, then the boiler will probably be sold with that, but if not, try and buy one with the parts included.


Make sure its a riello burner. Theyre not great burners or anthing, but, as above, theyre so common place, that spare units are easy to come by. You can see them in the photos - red plastic cover.

Im sure i linked to some (then) current ebay sales earlier in the thread, but you need to know the KW that you require - i guess the easiest way to work that out is to look at the quote you got, and see what they spec'ed!

My friend wanted me to find him a condensor for his swimming pool before christmass. I found him this -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162817555805?ul_noapp=true

Sure, its scruffy, but who cares for a pool boiler room. I think he purchased it on that ebay 20% off day too, so didnt even pay the £40 end price.

He was replacing an older boiler that i gave him because he has swapped from using heavier fuel (which the old boiler was good for, but now hes on kerosene, he may as well get a condenser)

u

Thanks mate really informative! Will do some reading up on boiler sizes and figure out what I actually need.

Unfortunately I don’t think we can have a low level flue as the other side of the intended space in the utility is a narrow walkway outside. It is however a single story flat roof extension so maybe it won’t be so expensive for the flue to just go vertical through the ceiling.

Have seen a full system on the bay for £1400, but it’s a good few hours drive away and I’d need to hire a van. Plus it seems I could do better buying the bits individually anyway.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OIL-FIRE...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Thanks again for the help

 

[julianf]

Really, dont bother buying 2nd hand pressed steel rads.

If youre going for feature cast iron units, sure, but generic pressed steel are so cheap - just go to toolstation and buy new, get free deliver, and job done. As i say, they come with the mounting kits, and you will end up with nice clean new units, in exactly the size you want, without someone elses chips all over them.

They come in single skin, double skin, single or double convector, etc.etc. so its best to just get what you need rather than trying to shoe horn used into place.

Im all for buying used, but i wouldnt bother with free 2nd hand (modern) rads, let alone paying for them.


I cut some headder tanks up for the black bins about a month back - they wont even take them at the dump (where they can sell on the plastic) so they went in the bin. Theyre worthless, so dont be paying good money for them either! Controllers, id just buy new. Im sure i have some in the store that ill give you if youre ever passing. Again, not worth paying used for, and im not even sure if free used one are a good idea - theyre not big money. CH pumps are worth having, but you might get one with the boiler, or with the tank. They do break, but they can also go on for decades and decades. Theyre about £60 each new, so if you do get one with something else, its a bonus. Same with zone valves etc.

Copper tanks are crazy money new, but so many on ebay used that you can work out the size you need and just keep an eye out. i purchased 3 for a project a couple of months ago, and paid no more than £30 per unit. Thats probably less than the copper is worth for scrap.

I guess, in short, some stuff is well worth buying used - the boiler, tank etc. but some stuff is good to get exactly to spec, and cheap enough to do so anyway.

 

[Phil_D]

Really, dont bother buying 2nd hand pressed steel rads.

If youre going for feature cast iron units, sure, but generic pressed steel are so cheap - just go to toolstation and buy new, get free deliver, and job done. As i say, they come with the mounting kits, and you will end up with nice clean new units, in exactly the size you want, without someone elses chips all over them.

They come in single skin, double skin, single or double convector, etc.etc. so its best to just get what you need rather than trying to shoe horn used into place.

Im all for buying used, but i wouldnt bother with free 2nd hand (modern) rads, let alone paying for them.


I cut some headder tanks up for the black bins about a month back - they wont even take them at the dump (where they can sell on the plastic) so they went in the bin. Theyre worthless, so dont be paying good money for them either! Controllers, id just buy new. Im sure i have some in the store that ill give you if youre ever passing. Again, not worth paying used for, and im not even sure if free used one are a good idea - theyre not big money. CH pumps are worth having, but you might get one with the boiler, or with the tank. They do break, but they can also go on for decades and decades. Theyre about £60 each new, so if you do get one with something else, its a bonus. Same with zone valves etc.

Copper tanks are crazy money new, but so many on ebay used that you can work out the size you need and just keep an eye out. i purchased 3 for a project a couple of months ago, and paid no more than £30 per unit. Thats probably less than the copper is worth for scrap.

I guess, in short, some stuff is well worth buying used - the boiler, tank etc. but some stuff is good to get exactly to spec, and cheap enough to do so anyway.

What’s the need for a copper tank with a combi boiler.

Just done a whole host of calculations using online tools to get an idea of what boiler and rad requirements I’ll have but the results vary wildly. One came out with my requirement as 44175-53025 BTU and the other 36785BTU. I live in an old poorly insulated 3 bedroom cottage. Total floor space is about 130SQM - what sort of power should I be looking at?

 

[julianf]

No need for a tank with a combi. Thats most of the benefit of them.
I think all those calculations are pretty random anyhow, but ive never done them (im not an installer) but i would think that unit that has a range, say, 18-26kw ish (all oil units have a range, depending on how theyre set up) would do you.
The smallest oil boilers come is about 15kw, but theyre more suited to modern well insulated places. You get (on paper) a bit higher efficiency on the next size range up too.

But, again, im not an installer, and have done no calcs.

If youre paying for fuel, sort out as much of the insulation as you can first. There used to be some schemes where you could get some money off, or even free. They may or may not still be running.

We had our loft done on one of them (free) and then i went and purchased a load of rolls of insulation from one of the DIY places, as they had some scheme on where it was 90% off list (government thing). But that was years ago. Look into it though?

 

[gaz1]

probably way over your needs

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Grant-Vor...734697?hash=item284c4be769:g:AccAAOSwcdRY85a6

https://www.grantuk.com/product/vortex-pro-outdoor-condensing-range/

there is a few on ebay at moment

 

[Phil_D]

probably way over your needs

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Grant-Vor...734697?hash=item284c4be769:g:AccAAOSwcdRY85a6

https://www.grantuk.com/product/vortex-pro-outdoor-condensing-range/

there is a few on ebay at moment

Ive had a look at the grants currently on eBay, one or two fit the bill (used) but are weighing in at about £750. I’ve seen a worcs green star heatslave 2 that’s a reasonable price but it’s max 25kw output. We will have a total of 10 rads and have 1 bathroom, unlikely to use more than one hot water source at once.. my house is solid stone with pants insulation, I’m not sure that 25kw would be enough..

 

[gaz1]

dont forget if one wont cover the whole system then 2 systems can be used therefore if one fails there is another