Biogas Resources

[fizzy]

My late FiL was a Power Station Equipment Designer & lately Sales Engineer.
He had originally trained at MetroVick in Manchester.
He was part of the team that developed the RB211 Power Generator system.
One project he was involved in the early 80s was a Pig Farm in the US
where the pig exhaust was converted into gas which was burnt in RB211 shaft output engines that drove alternators.
The pig farm was massive and multiple pig-poo alternators were involved.
I forget the MW figures but he reckoned the pig farm output would have run the entire London Underground with ease.

Some of his RB211 alternators are still in use by London Underground as standby generators and Offshore.

Not much use for OnOff unless he wants to get involved with MicroTurbines!

http://www.jetenginetrader.co.uk/product-category/engines/rover-mk10501-apu/ ?

We had one customers running a bio gas plant using smaller gas turbines. We had regular business shipping them back and forth between Sweden and the UK as they were always breaking down.
The RB211 is an awesome engine and has run up millions of hours. It bankrupted Rolls Royce but became the best gas turbine in the World and sold very well.

 

[Robotstar5]

We had one customers running a bio gas plant using smaller gas turbines. We had regular business shipping them back and forth between Sweden and the UK as they were always breaking down.
The RB211 is an awesome engine and has run up millions of hours. It bankrupted Rolls Royce but became the best gas turbine in the World and sold very well.

I was watching a program about the London underground, their backup power supply at Greenwich has Roll Royce gas turbines, don't know if they're RB211's though - linky

 

[pint]

I have been told that a fair amount of the maize grown around here goes direct to biogas plants, skipping the cows altogether. I don't know if that is true, or your standard anti-green propaganda.

this is a pig farm near me https://www.pig-world.co.uk/features/powered-by-pigs.html

.....Each day the plant is fed 70 tonnes of pig manure, 50 tonnes of economised straw and 20 tonnes of maize or rye silage........

that's a lot of pig__t and a lot of maize

 

[Onoff]

That bit about the pig farm fits with what I've read about a 50/50 brown to green mix.

 

[GRW]

I just came back from viewing a CHP setup on a Farm.
Basically they burn dried wood pellets in this burner thing.... which creates gas that can then be used to fuel the generator.
The generator is a JCB Dieselmax Model engined machine - converted to run on the produced gas by the Austrian (I think) company that built the whole enclosed shebang.
Output capability is 50kW, 3ph.
The controls (ComAp stuff) include the G99 voltage and frequency monitors/relays so the setup can synchronise with the Farm Utility supply, and export the surplus and it runs 24/7, 365 (except for stoppages & maintenance).

I was told they currently get 9p a Unit for his exported units - but a new contract just agreed sees that go up a LOT - so the system stands to bring in a great deal of income - so much so that he's looking to see if he can add kit to double his output capacity.

 

[fizzy]

I just came back from viewing a CHP setup on a Farm.
Basically they burn dried wood pellets in this burner thing.... which creates gas that can then be used to fuel the generator.
The generator is a JCB Dieselmax Model engined machine - converted to run on the produced gas by the Austrian (I think) company that built the whole enclosed shebang.
Output capability is 50kW, 3ph.
The controls (ComAp stuff) include the G99 voltage and frequency monitors/relays so the setup can synchronise with the Farm Utility supply, and export the surplus and it runs 24/7, 365 (except for stoppages & maintenance).

I was told they currently get 9p a Unit for his exported units - but a new contract just agreed sees that go up a LOT - so the system stands to bring in a great deal of income - so much so that he's looking to see if he can add kit to double his output capacity.

Before all this kicked off gas power stations were paid 4p per kw/h. That is the target price to keep bills down and allow British companies to remain competitive.

 

[addjunkie]

My late FiL was a Power Station Equipment Designer & lately Sales Engineer.
He had originally trained at MetroVick in Manchester.
He was part of the team that developed the RB211 Power Generator system.
One project he was involved in the early 80s was a Pig Farm in the US
where the pig exhaust was converted into gas which was burnt in RB211 shaft output engines that drove alternators.
The pig farm was massive and multiple pig-poo alternators were involved.
I forget the MW figures but he reckoned the pig farm output would have run the entire London Underground with ease.

Some of his RB211 alternators are still in use by London Underground as standby generators and Offshore.

Not much use for OnOff unless he wants to get involved with MicroTurbines!

http://www.jetenginetrader.co.uk/product-category/engines/rover-mk10501-apu/ ?

Ive been intimate with the RB211 in its industrial engine form, each one produced just under 25MWs of juice. But not the most enviromentally efficient beast!

I think the whole fairy farming world is about to be turned upside down . My basic understanding is that from a set date , all farms will have to be able to store a full years worth of manure , and only be able to spread it on the land for a very short window , ie weeks .

This is so called to prevent run off in the relevant water courses during heavy rainy seasons .

2 farms near me , that both had a head of over 400 have just sold all the livestock and looking at other options as it was financially viable to upgrade slurry pits etc , as a single cows produces a phenomenal amount of much a year , then multiolu that by how many cows , and that is some serious space .

The money they get for the milk just doesn’t add up to the major investment . It’s another nail in the coffin for agriculture.

So whilst it may be a useful source of fuel , it won’t take long to see rapid decline in dairy farms sadly .

This is part of thedrive to remove the need to keep cows inand return to traditional meat breeds that stay out all year, fertilising their own fields as such

I just came back from viewing a CHP setup on a Farm.
Basically they burn dried wood pellets in this burner thing.... which creates gas that can then be used to fuel the generator.
The generator is a JCB Dieselmax Model engined machine - converted to run on the produced gas by the Austrian (I think) company that built the whole enclosed shebang.
Output capability is 50kW, 3ph.
The controls (ComAp stuff) include the G99 voltage and frequency monitors/relays so the setup can synchronise with the Farm Utility supply, and export the surplus and it runs 24/7, 365 (except for stoppages & maintenance).

I was told they currently get 9p a Unit for his exported units - but a new contract just agreed sees that go up a LOT - so the system stands to bring in a great deal of income - so much so that he's looking to see if he can add kit to double his output capacity.

But the pellet plant costs 50 million to build, they get paid to burn wood, to dry wood into pellets to sell on to others to burn and get paid for it. The crux is mostisnt viable with out the government paying them to burn it.

Even more bizzare is many of the pellet are imported too, so again not exactly environmentally good. I buy the pellets for bedding in the barn when asking why there in short supply this year, one of my Sunday drinking circle is MD of a forestry company explained the pellet thing. Madness!

 

[Onoff]

Getting back to basics...

Let's say I've got my little test rig made, a blue barrel filled with my manure mix and an upended one to collect the gas. I keep it warm, anaerobic digestion does its thing and the top barrel rises.

Presumably any hose coming off the collector barrel will be under pressure...until it's not. I'm dead scared about blowback if I light it up.

Is there some simple, suitable valve to use?

 

[wyn]

Wire gauze?

 

[8ob]

Presumably any hose coming off the collector barrel will be under pressure...until it's not. I'm dead scared about blowback if I light it up.

Its safe all the time there is no oxygen present, in the collector barrel.

Bob

 

[addjunkie]

Getting back to basics...



Presumably any hose coming off the collector barrel will be under pressure...until it's not. I'm dead scared about blowback if I light it up.

Is there some simple, suitable valve to use?

What you are looking for is a flash back arrestor. Or you could put it through a water seal (loop seal) , like a u bend, but how do you ensure it remains water filled

 

[500e]

Think Davey lamp

 

[addjunkie]

Its safe all the time there is no oxygen present, in the collector barrel.

Bob

But once the pressure equalises , the stoichiometric ratio will hit the upper explosion limit fair quickly and pop

 

[8ob]

But once the pressure equalises , the stoichiometric ratio will hit the upper explosion limit fair quickly and pop

True but it would be no worse than a calor appliance running out with a pop like they do, no flashbacks on those systems.

Bob

 

[Onoff]

True but it would be no worse than a calor appliance running out with a pop like they do, no flashbacks on those systems.

Bob

Could I just pipe it to a Calor gas stove?

 

[addjunkie]

True but it would be no worse than a calor appliance running out with a pop like they do, no flashbacks on those systems.

Bob

Yes then his digester would be out of gas but still generating with no ignited flame, so slowly filling what ever space the gas is piped too, till the lower explosion limit is reached which is about 4.3% by volume for methane if my memory serves me correctly. Which could then be catastrophic if ignited by say a non Exd electrical light

 

[8ob]

Yes then his digester would be out of gas but still generating with no ignited flame, so slowly filling what ever space the gas is piped too, till the lower explosion limit is reached which is about 4.3% by volume for methane if my memory serves me correctly. Which could then be catastrophic if ignited by say a non Exd electrical light

Maybe, the one I saw that the Indians were using was only a bit of barrel pipe coming through the floor with a tap on top, they opened the tap and lit the pipe, no burner assembly or any complications it was as simple as that. I suppose if gas was there it lit and if there was none it didnt. The emphasis has to be on not letting any air into the digester.

Bob

 

[Popcorn]

Renewable wood pellets are fine as long as there not shipped across the Atlantic on crude oil burning transporters.
We can fix it all easily by allowing the Hugh oil field under north Lincolnshire to be tapped and following the Germans lead and building eviromental coal fired power stations.
Which would run on our own much more efficient and clean burning Anthracite instead of that mucky horrible brown coal there using.

 

[gaz1]

On top Truss plans to borrow 100 Billion to cap energy prices at the already outrageous levels..... meaning that's another vast sum for the poor taxpayer to shoulder, which guarantees the cost of living will be higher forever.... while the Energy Co's rake it in.

It's absolute insanity and ongoing gross mismanagement of the country and abject failure to represent the people responsibly.
And there's sod-all we can do about it, because the majority of the Electorate can be bought off with beads, and the Politicians don't actually care at all.

might as well buy it back then

Getting back to basics...

Let's say I've got my little test rig made, a blue barrel filled with my manure mix and an upended one to collect the gas. I keep it warm, anaerobic digestion does its thing and the top barrel rises.

Presumably any hose coming off the collector barrel will be under pressure...until it's not. I'm dead scared about blowback if I light it up.

Is there some simple, suitable valve to use?

fyi

each one takes 30-60 days to complete gas process so you would need 4 of them to cover weekly supply

fixed dome
floating dome
balloon plants
horizontal plants

fixed dome

i prefer this type

and what it produces and what you have to get rid of

which then your better off having a long tank so it can dry up or be dug out and used as a garden fertiliser

the water off of that now needs to go through a cleaner

 

[addjunkie]

Renewable wood pellets are fine as long as there not shipped across the Atlantic on crude oil burning transporters.
We can fix it all easily by allowing the Hugh oil field under north Lincolnshire to be tapped and following the Germans lead and building eviromental coal fired power stations.
Which would run on our own much more efficient and clean burning Anthracite instead of that mucky horrible brown coal there using.

But the pellets are shipped mostly from Europe on diesel burning box boats, mine are cutrently enroute to liverpool from Lisbon according to the lady with the sexy voice when I rang to order. Not all are imported though, some are a by product of saw mills, but as the output from saw mills is down, some closed altogether, they are not so readily available. An elderly neighbour of ours needs the 10kg bags, but her supplier has none. She cant lift the bigger bags to fill the hopper. Her eco warrior hubby died recently, it was madness for-them not to have a bulk fill option. I took half a pallet of mine along to keep her going, but they are 15kg bags, so I pop in a couple of times a week to top the hopper up.

I do agee our coal was politically closed in favour of gas, and on shore oil and gas is an option linconshire had oilfields in production 40 years ago. we need joined up long term thinking, the current global climate highlights the weakness in a global economy. Food and fuel security or even independence is key to a quiet life