2K Safety - Leason learnt

[the snooper]

from the above data sheet

Contains isocyanates. See information supplied by the manufacturer

- refer to the material safety data sheet.

there is a binder that can replace the activator and there is a thread on here about it, I don't know how good it is as I only use the 2k activator have a search

 

[Damocles]

Thanks for you're reply.

The section you refer to is the labelling to be applied when storing the product if I get it right.

It just frustrates me that I read how harmful it is and then the MSDS of the manufacturer says an A2/P3 is sufficient.
It's not that I want to risk continuing spraying it. I just want to get things clear for everyone.

A large portion of text from the MSDS on page 10:

Exposure controls

Engineering Measures

Provide adequate ventilation.
Where reasonably practicable this should be achieved by the use of local exhaust ventilation and
good general extraction.
Spraying of sensitizer containing products should only be carried out in suitable spray booth or
enclosures equipped with effective exhaust ventilation to prevent spray mist escaping into the
work areas outside the spray booth.

Respiratory protective equipment should be worn by spray booth
operatives (see "Personal protection" below).
Under cool dry conditions, it is possible for the isocyanate to
remain unreacted in the paint film for up to 30 hours after application.
Personal protective equipment

All personal protective equipment, including
respiratory protective equipment, used to control exposure to hazardous substances must be selected to
meet the requirements of the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992 and
the COSHH Regulations.

Respiratory Protection
When workers are facing concentrations above the
occupational exposure limits they must use appropriate certified respirators.

Dry sanding, flame cutting and/or welding of the dry paint film will give rise to dust and/or hazardous fumes. Wet (sanding/flatting) should be used wherever possible. If exposure
cannot be avoided by the provision of local exhaust ventilation, suitable respiratory protective equipment should be used.

Suitable respiratory protection: e.g. full face mask with AB2P3
class combination filter

I've bought this product telling the guys in the paint shop I never sprayed any paint so first of all should have informed me IMHO.
Next, if now we can't even thrust the MSDS anymore?!!?? ...

 

[the snooper]

these products usually state on them for professional use only
I don't think these data sheets state exactly what filtration you should use apart from appropriate certified respirators, which legally covers them as the use of their product and exactly what safety measures you take are out of their control

 

[Damocles]

Yes you are right in that for the professional use.

However, "Suitable respiratory protection: e.g. full face mask with AB2P3 class combination filter" is rather a clear statement I think.
It confuses people like myself.

Anyway, I'll tell my boss we're not spraying that stuff any more and I'll test with a 1K, it might be sufficient.

Thanks for the help.

 

[the snooper]

get your boss to purchase an air fed system they are not all that expensive and the 2k is far better then 1k

 

[Damocles]

Yes but like I said it is only to make 4 parts as a one shot for now, and then perhaps some more every year.
It doesn't justify the installation of a spray booth with all the equipment to paint 5 small objects (< 1m²). It's not about the money but the time it will take us and all the safety requirements we should take to keep working with this that aren't worth the troubles.

There is only one window we use now for ventilating the workshop together with the welding fume extractor.
I was always alone in the workshop in a separated are under the fume extractor, and left the workshop after painting over night,
but it's not sealed so it's not sufficient.

The other access gives into areas where people are working so that's not an option either.
Neither can't we easily put an air compressor outside for fresh air.

It's to seal plugs to make molds for composite wings for research purposes, we need a very smooth surface to install pressure taps, but we don't need mirror finish. Also it doesn't has to last, neither UV resistant, ...
We only need chemical resistance so that the epoxy resins don't bond with the paint. I might look at 1K PU varnish or Acrilyc paint.
Alternatively, it might actually be cheaper to just drop the parts at a bodyshop and ask them to clear coat them.

After reading the first posts of this topic it's clear that it's not worth messing with this paint.

 

[Parm]

Right folks, I'm a new member and just come across this post.

For my day job I'm a specialist safety consultant that is interested in how chemical, physical (noise vibration) and biological agents can damage the human body. I spen a lot of time in factories, oil refineries, nuclear power stations and offshore oil rigs advising people on how to protect the works force from the damaging effects of the above.

Time for a lesson,

2 pack paints contain isocyanates. The chemical that causes the reaction to cure the paint. It's very good at what it does but also one of the most potent respiratory sensitisers know to man and highly capable of causing asthma. We cannot smell or taste isocyanates therefore we have no way of knowing they are present thus making them even more dangerous.

If using 2 pack paints which are very good then the only way of providing any form of respiratory protection is to use a compressed air fed full face shield or respirator. If a shop compressor is being used it is paramount that the intake is no where near where the paint is being applied.

Ordinary filtering respirators that have no air supply offer no protection whatsoever against isocyanates. In this situation these are akin to wearing a tissue infront of your nose.

Please always use an air fed respirator with a clean supply of air. This is the only way of having any protection.

If any one wants free advice on such matter drop me a line and I will do my best to help

Parm

 

[richie00boy]

Ordinary filtering respirators that have no air supply offer no protection whatsoever against isocyanates. In this situation these are akin to wearing a tissue infront of your nose.

Is that really true though? Can you provide a paper showing evidence of that. If it were true back street painters would be dropping like flies.

I'm not condoning using a half mask, most people wouldn't know how to choose the correct rated one, and they have no way of knowing when it's no longer able to adsorb isocyanate. So it's a risk. But I think it's better to have informed facts than blanket scaremongering statements.

For me the issue with using 2k paints is that many people seem to do it in residential areas, even in home garages. This is irresponsible towards neighbours and kids.

 

[Parm]

Is that really true though? Can you provide a paper showing evidence of that. If it were true back street painters would be dropping like flies.

I'm not condoning using a half mask, most people wouldn't know how to choose the correct rated one, and they have no way of knowing when it's no longer able to adsorb isocyanate. So it's a risk. But I think it's better to have informed facts than blanket scaremongering statements.

For me the issue with using 2k paints is that many people seem to do it in residential areas, even in home garages. This is irresponsible towards neighbours and kids.

This is not scaremongering but based on hard facts and 20 years experience of working with a variety of organisations to safeguard worker health. To top it off I have two university degrees in this specialist sector.

Below is some information taken directly from the HSE web site

Paints containing isocyanate are used extensively in MVR as almost all motor vehicle repair bodyshops use 2-pack or "2K" isocyanate-containing paints. Isocyanates are used in some water-based paints, most base coats and almost all lacquers. ‘Water-based' does not mean ‘isocyanate-free', just that it is emulsion based and has reduced levels of solvents.

Spraying 2-pack isocyanate paints is the main cause of occupational asthma in the UK and, for years, vehicle paint sprayers have been the group most at risk. MVR paint sprayers have about a 90 times higher risk of getting asthma compared with the UK working population. Every year around 50 sprayers are diagnosed with isocyanate asthma and most have to leave the industry. Other workers in bodyshops are also sometimes affected eg maintenance personnel, managers and others who work in close proximity to spray booths/rooms. This spray mist containing isocyanate may also worsen existing asthma. Once people are affected even very low exposure levels can trigger an attack. Significant skin contact with isocyanate hardeners may cause dermatitis.

Over a number of years HSE have worked with industry representatives to explode the myths and explain why even the best air-fed visor can fail to protect people. Over 2000 people involved with vehicle paint spraying have attended free workshops up and down the country to find out how they could carry on using isocyanate paints safely. The ground-breaking training material used at these Safety and Health Awareness Days has now been made freely available on the MVR webpages.

• Ten bodyshop myths that can take your breath away

Below are some key tips for vehicle paint sprayers and owners of motor vehicle repair bodyshops.

Vehicle paint sprayers

• The risk of developing occupational asthma occurs because paint spraying produces a lot of invisible airborne mist that you can breathe in. Never spray paint outside the booth or room.
• Your booth/room takes time to clear of mist, so know the clearance time and make sure everyone else does too.
• Always wear air-fed breathing apparatus (BA) when spraying and know how to safely leave or enter your booth or room during the clearance time.
• Your employer should check the controls are working by measuring your exposure to isocyanate. Currently the only way to do this (and accepted by the MVR industry) is by providing a urine sample for analysis. See Sector Information Sheet 03/2012/01 - Reducing ill health from isocyanate exposure in motor vehicle repair (MVR)
• You need regular health surveillance i.e. lung function testing and skin checks. This is to identify early symptoms and signs of occupational asthma and dermatitis (skin rashes).

Bodyshop owners / managers

• Spraying 2-pack isocyanate paints creates fine, invisible, airborne mist that can cause occupational asthma
• It spreads through the air like smoke.
• Your spray booth or room takes time to clear of fine paint mist.
• Measure the clearance time using a smoke/fog generator, clearly mark it on the entrance door(s) and make sure everyone who uses the booth/room knows what to do. For information on smoke generators and advice on how to conduct a clearance time measurement please see 'Measuring paint spray booth clearance time'.
• The research report 'An automated system for indicating spray clearance times of MVR spray booths and rooms - RR742' describes the design and assembly of a device consisting of a timer switch, programmed with the clearance time, which is triggered by a sensor that detects when the spray gun is turned on and off. Two types of sensor are evaluated and recommendations made for different operational setups. The system is relatively inexpensive and can be retrofitted to existing spray booths/rooms.
• Make sure the booth/room runs at slight negative pressure so that if there are any leaks, air is drawn into the booth/room rather than paint mist leaking out into the workshop
• Make a list of simple daily and weekly checks to be done in the booth/room, appoint someone to do them, record the findings and act if things are wrong
• Check exposure is properly controlled by arranging for the analysis of urine samples of vehicle paint sprayers. See Sector Information Sheet 03/2012/01 - Reducing ill health from isocyanate exposure in motor vehicle repair (MVR)
• Arrange regular health surveillance for those potentially exposed to isocyanate paints such as sprayers. For more information on health surveillance for occupational asthma see HSE guidance publication 'Health surveillance for occupational asthma (G402)'
• Use the COSHH paint spraying and allied tasks and other published advice to help you reduce exposures to isocyanates.

 

[ukracer]

Now this comment

"‘Water-based' does not mean ‘isocyanate-free', just that it is emulsion based and has reduced levels of solvents."

is stunning.

Absolutely amazing....

 

[1960bus]

"Ordinary filtering respirators that have no air supply offer no protection whatsoever against isocyanates. In this situation these are akin to wearing a tissue infront of your nose."

I'd rather go with a full face carbon mask out of the packet than the tissue thanks. The reason the half mask is not recommended isn't that the carbon doesn't filter the ISOs (it does if you have the right one). Its because Half masks are negative pressure (some ISOs might get in), you wouldn't be able to tell if your filter was working or not because the iso's don't smell and also you are going absorb it through your eyes and skin. I bought one of these turbine Hobbyairs though from the states with a long hose that is a long way away from any fumes.

Although, the end although it was expensive it meant I didn't need to stress my compressor and I didn't need the filters for breathing air. However, a few times I've not been near my hobbyair and I've painted 2k primer outside with a brand new 3M carbon mask, this thread has made me think I'll probably not do that again. I always get out of the spray space and don't go back in with out a mask on for days.

 

[the snooper]

"Ordinary filtering respirators that have no air supply offer no protection whatsoever against isocyanates. In this situation these are akin to wearing a tissue infront of your nose."

I'd rather go with a full face carbon mask out of the packet than the tissue thanks. The reason the half mask is not recommended isn't that the carbon doesn't filter the ISOs (it does if you have the right one). Its because Half masks are negative pressure (some ISOs might get in), you wouldn't be able to tell if your filter was working or not because the iso's don't smell and also you are going absorb it through your eyes and skin. I bought one of these turbine Hobbyairs though from the states with a long hose that is a long way away from any fumes.

Although, the end although it was expensive it meant I didn't need to stress my compressor and I didn't need the filters for breathing air. However, a few times I've not been near my hobbyair and I've painted 2k primer outside with a brand new 3M carbon mask, this thread has made me think I'll probably not do that again. I always get out of the spray space and don't go back in with out a mask on for days.

its only air bourne particles you have to worry about, its a myth regarding isocyanates being absorbed through the eyes and skin, so after a decent time period and all your over spray and mist has cleared its then safe to go back into the spray room

 

[Cyberprog]

A friend of mine was recently a gigantic bell-end (his words, not mine) and opened a pressurised pipe fitting (8bar) carrying isocyanate. He said in 4 seconds it dumped 250L of the stuff over him and his cow-orker. Neither had any proper PPE on, neither had carried out the right procedures. Both had to be decontaminated, and his cow-orker was still in hospital over the weekend due to ingesting a quantity of it. Nasty stuff, but he's come out of it largely unharmed, save some patches on his skin.

 

[brightspark]

A friend of mine was recently a gigantic bell-end (his words, not mine) and opened a pressurised pipe fitting (8bar) carrying isocyanate. He said in 4 seconds it dumped 250L of the stuff over him and his cow-orker. Neither had any proper PPE on, neither had carried out the right procedures. Both had to be decontaminated, and his cow-orker was still in hospital over the weekend due to ingesting a quantity of it. Nasty stuff, but he's come out of it largely unharmed, save some patches on his skin.

so it sounds as if the firm he works for obviously hasnt any job method statement and suitably trained staff my mate works on the hcn plant and they have to wear suit and breathing gear when dismantling pipes at every joint even when empty or flushed out

 

[Cyberprog]

so it sounds as if the firm he works for obviously hasnt any job method statement and suitably trained staff my mate works on the hcn plant and they have to wear suit and breathing gear when dismantling pipes at every joint even when empty or flushed out

Oh, no, they had all that. The bell-ends just didn't follow proper procedure, wear the proper clothing, and all that. He admitted to it, as did his cow-orker, who should have double checked it and also been suitably atired! They'd done the procedure 100's of times, guess sooner or later they were bound to mess up!

 

[1960bus]

3M believe that cartridges filter out ISOS...

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtnXTX4xMVEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--

 

[the snooper]

3M believe that cartridges filter out ISOS...

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtnXTX4xMVEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--

i think it will be a little more then believe, they spend millions in research, the issue has been that due to no positive pressure behind the face mask it could be prone to unfiltered air getting in through ill fitted masks where as air fed protects against this we know that carbon particle masks protect us against a whole range of nasties so there is always the chance of leakage no matter what you are trying to avoid

 

[Rocketman]

Yeah it doesn't take much to move a mask. As said before you don't know when either it's time to change the filter cartridges - it's too late if you can smell anything.

 

[vw1]

So I am worried now as I have a full 3m face mask with A2/P3 filters and I use epoxy 121 but it does say it's isocyanate free . I have been wanting to use 2k for a while but have not because of the isocyanate content , but I have found out that jawel paints sell 2k that is isocyanate free just like the epoxy 121 I use..

I spray in my garage with a roof light window open with 10"extraction fan placed where I spray with 10" flex pipe run up to the window light , with garage back door open and front garage up and over door half open.

I only spray small areas like chassis parts weld repairs on my 70's vw beetle , not every day just now and again.

Your thoughts please ..

 

[the snooper]

So I am worried now as I have a full 3m face mask with A2/P3 filters and I use epoxy 121 but it does say it's isocyanate free . I have been wanting to use 2k for a while but have not because of the isocyanate content , but I have found out that jawel paints sell 2k that is isocyanate free just like the epoxy 121 I use..

I spray in my garage with a roof light window open with 10"extraction fan placed where I spray with 10" flex pipe run up to the window light , with garage back door open and front garage up and over door half open.

I only spray small areas like chassis parts weld repairs on my 70's vw beetle , not every day just now and again.

Your thoughts please ..

its not exactly 2k as we know it they will be using unibinder in place of the standard activator there is a thread on here somewhere and people have tried it