Fitting double glazed units to old sash and case windows.......

[RaceDiagnostics]

Here we go, I've ordered two sealed units to try out on the first window. There are 8 in total on the ground floor to renovate and convert. The last person to paint the windows was an imbecile, over painted right on to the stone work so that needs sorting out and repointing too. On top of that the draught proofing also needs fixing as it's also been over painted. So once again I'm starting on a project without a clue, no change there. I expect the first one will be a learning experience.

First I raked out the old pointing and stripped the paint off the frame and wall.

Painted.

Pointed

 

[Welderpaul]

Good work, looks like a lovely house too.

I would never get my mrs up a ladder

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Next, on to the lower frame, stripping out the putty.

Glass out.

After a lot more putty removal it was on to the router to deepen the rebate for the 4-8-4 glass.

Two issues I did find, one, the rebate is only about 5mm wide, I thought it would be at least 10.

...and two, there is no rebate on the top bar, it turned out to have a slot.

I'm sure I'll work out a solution for both. I bought an expensive bit for the router and it worked well.

Turned out to be fairly easy to do by hand.

The frame will need a bit of work, put on a bit of wood hardener, a bit of filler tomorrow but first I tried out of the sealed unit for size. 21kg of glass!

 

[angellonewolf]

Good work, looks like a lovely house too.

I would never get my mrs up a ladder

i wont let mine loose with a paint brush not after id done al the work to make it look good prep and etc all for to save me a couple hours if i dont paint it (and i hate painting)

 

[reb78]

If I tried to get mine to help me do soemthing like his we'd end up not talking for 2 months. Well less than normal anyway! Even if I need help it's easier to do it myself.

Good work with these sashes though. I wish I had this level of motivation these days!

 

[OJCar]

I think she has got it sorted.
Just stand back and provide encouragement.

 

[eddie49]

That tin of paint needs to be hanging from a hook.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

i wont let mine loose with a paint brush not after id done al the work to make it look good prep and etc all for to save me a couple hours if i dont paint it (and i hate painting)

I don't do painting edges as they never end up straight.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

That tin of paint needs to be hanging from a hook.

I told her that!

 

[gaz1]

i wouldnt have done what youve done as not enough wood at the sides for the weight of the glass

i would have made new sash frames up and kept the split in the middle

however if you wanted to do with new frames you could go to the wide window but there no longer sash windows as they dont have the split in the middle

making new sash frames is far easier as its take out the old ones and fit new ones straight away

 

[RichardM]

Nice to see the professionals' shoulder is better.

 

[MattF]

Have you added extra to the weights to compensate for the increase in weight of glazing?

 

[Pete.]

I would never get my mrs up a ladder

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Have you added extra to the weights to compensate for the increase in weight of glazing?

Bought a big bar of lead to add to the existing weights. Will chop up once I do the final weigh in.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

i wouldnt have done what youve done as not enough wood at the sides for the weight of the glass

i would have made new sash frames up and kept the split in the middle

however if you wanted to do with new frames you could go to the wide window but there no longer sash windows as they dont have the split in the middle

making new sash frames is far easier as its take out the old ones and fit new ones straight away

As I say this is a learning exercise, I'm happy to experiment to see how they hold together before doing the other 7 windows.

Also happy to loose the astragals at the back of the house as there are none at the front. They are like that at the back to limit the build cost for large glass sheets back in 1895.

 

[gaz1]

As I say this is a learning exercise, I'm happy to experiment to see how they hold together before doing the other 7 windows.

Also happy to loose the astragals at the back of the house as there are none at the front. They are like that at the back to limit the build cost for large glass sheets back in 1895.

you are better off using some new wood and use the old frame top and bottom to make new frames from

but dont make the sides to small as they will seperate as not enough wood to hold the weight

if the sides give you will have the bottom drop out with the glass as well

 

[Dragnet]

My tuppence, which you may disagree with. I appreciate your work and care taken on this, and the result looks good and you ought to be pleased with your handiwork. They look badly treated in the past, those windows - overpainting the sand mastic, too!

On a more philosophical level, the trouble with modern glass is that it's float. Old glass has character because the methods of creating sheets were different. Look at a street of old houses that have had windows replaced, particularly on old small-paned sashes and the new ones look eyeless, clinical, and lowering because the glass is too flat. The reflections are all wrong. In the words of the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings: "An old building with original glazing visually ‘sings’ in a way that is incomparable with a building glazed with modern glass. This is because period glass has ethereal qualities that machine-made, perfectly flat glass does not possess and cannot aspire to. The effect is noticeable in two ways: from without, when looking at a facade, and from within, where incoming light is refracted and plays on internal surfaces, as well as subtly distorting and enhancing views to the outside."

Float glass is made by floating the molten glass on a layer of tin. Invented in the 1950s, this is why we have such large expanses of *very* flat glass these days. Previously, glass was drawn in a long cylinder, then sliced longitudinally when still flexible and allowed to flop open. This flat glass still had ridges and imperfections. Before that, glass could be cast in large sheets, but in order to be 'plate' glass had to be laboriously ground and polished to become flat. Further back, glass had to be spun into a circle and cut into squares - the origin of the pastiche 'bullseye' circles in ye olde pubbes, representing the centre of a spun glass disc.

Cylinder glass is still available from specialist suppliers, and Fineo make a selection of vacuum-glazed panels with at least an approximation of 'heritage' glass. Lighter than double-glazed units and don't leak. I haven't seen these in the flesh, but have a project where I'm going to test them out imminently on some sample windows to replace some nasty 1990s softwood float glass ones. The advantage of vacuum glazing is that there is a glass seal around the edge - no spacers or gas to leak as there's a vacuum between the panes. As there's no chemical seal there's no trouble with using putty either as there's no seal to react.

I would also recommend linseed paint (and putty) - the best thing for wood, hands down, along with burnt sand mastic for the wood/stone joint. It might need recoating in a decade, but perhaps just with a coat of linseed oil. Modern plastic paints are a disaster for wood by comparison - they don't flex, and water gets trapped behind. The wood rots, the paint gets pushed off and we have serious window problems. Some good information from The Linseed Paint Company (a real one-man-and-dog firm in Scotland which I love) and Brouns which I've been using recently. Coverage is excellent and the smell is exquisite.

I'm not trying to knock you, just give another another opinion and a perspective on an issue close to my heart. Windows are really underappreciated, but once you start looking closely at them you recognise what an effect they have on a whole building, street and urban fabric.

Good job thinking about the weights as well. Not enough people take that care, which gives good old sliding sash windows a bad name. A well-balanced window that hasn't been overpainted for the last few decades is a really lovely thing.

 

[gaz1]

also look into sealing them

 

[addjunkie]

Nice work, keeping the character of the original house design. Wonder how many of your neighbours have just thrown cheap upvc in

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

My tuppence, which you may disagree with. I appreciate your work and care taken on this, and the result looks good and you ought to be pleased with your handiwork. They look badly treated in the past, those windows - overpainting the sand mastic, too!

On a more philosophical level, the trouble with modern glass is that it's float. Old glass has character because the methods of creating sheets were different. Look at a street of old houses that have had windows replaced, particularly on old small-paned sashes and the new ones look eyeless, clinical, and lowering because the glass is too flat. The reflections are all wrong. In the words of the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings: "An old building with original glazing visually ‘sings’ in a way that is incomparable with a building glazed with modern glass. This is because period glass has ethereal qualities that machine-made, perfectly flat glass does not possess and cannot aspire to. The effect is noticeable in two ways: from without, when looking at a facade, and from within, where incoming light is refracted and plays on internal surfaces, as well as subtly distorting and enhancing views to the outside."

Float glass is made by floating the molten glass on a layer of tin. Invented in the 1950s, this is why we have such large expanses of *very* flat glass these days. Previously, glass was drawn in a long cylinder, then sliced longitudinally when still flexible and allowed to flop open. This flat glass still had ridges and imperfections. Before that, glass could be cast in large sheets, but in order to be 'plate' glass had to be laboriously ground and polished to become flat. Further back, glass had to be spun into a circle and cut into squares - the origin of the pastiche 'bullseye' circles in ye olde pubbes, representing the centre of a spun glass disc.

Cylinder glass is still available from specialist suppliers, and Fineo make a selection of vacuum-glazed panels with at least an approximation of 'heritage' glass. Lighter than double-glazed units and don't leak. I haven't seen these in the flesh, but have a project where I'm going to test them out imminently on some sample windows to replace some nasty 1990s softwood float glass ones. The advantage of vacuum glazing is that there is a glass seal around the edge - no spacers or gas to leak as there's a vacuum between the panes. As there's no chemical seal there's no trouble with using putty either as there's no seal to react.

I would also recommend linseed paint (and putty) - the best thing for wood, hands down, along with burnt sand mastic for the wood/stone joint. It might need recoating in a decade, but perhaps just with a coat of linseed oil. Modern plastic paints are a disaster for wood by comparison - they don't flex, and water gets trapped behind. The wood rots, the paint gets pushed off and we have serious window problems. Some good information from The Linseed Paint Company (a real one-man-and-dog firm in Scotland which I love) and Brouns which I've been using recently. Coverage is excellent and the smell is exquisite.

I'm not trying to knock you, just give another another opinion and a perspective on an issue close to my heart. Windows are really underappreciated, but once you start looking closely at them you recognise what an effect they have on a whole building, street and urban fabric.

Good job thinking about the weights as well. Not enough people take that care, which gives good old sliding sash windows a bad name. A well-balanced window that hasn't been overpainted for the last few decades is a really lovely thing.

I looked at fino vacuum glass, the problem with it is expense and lead times as it's made in Belgium. I asked about vacuum panels at a couple of glazing suppliers, they looked at me blankly and asked what gas was in it. I'm also aware of all the points you made above and if money was no issue I'd be going down one of these routes. Given there isn't a single house on my street with original wood windows, never mind tube glass, I don't feel it's incumbent upon me to maintain perfect originality at the cost of higher heating bills.