Who would you employ

[daleyd]

Schneider Electric (Used to be Invensys) for one example. I'm doing exactly the same job as a guy with a masters degree (Joined the same time as me), on the strength of my experience and previous specialist training.

My lack of degree got me through their HR dept OK, joined in April 2013, so not that long ago.

They employ around 100,000 people globally.

 

[daleyd]

Yes, why not? I haven't done anything special, and I see apprentices all the time doing the same stuff I've done over the years.

Please dont think I'm for a moment knocking the degree system, but I also think there is a place for the vocational traning route as well

 

[daleyd]

Partly due to offshoring and the attendant years long refusal to train people, which in many areas has resulted in agency staff being used, killing inhouse knowledge levels (especially when older staff leave/retire) along with frequently progression routes being blocked off / job hogged (i.e. those who don't want to progress up the ladder and thus stop others moving onwards because they can't get the experience to climb the career ladder)

Its going to take DECADES to sort out the mess that began in the 1980s and will result in a lot of people ending up in a poverty stricken old age...(not enough companies taking on graduates, too many vocations who take the attitude that those with a degree aren't fit to dirty their hands (despite there being a severe skills shortage in certain fields) - a perfectly "british" case of cutting off your nose to spite your face...

all good points, and all true, though I still see many companies taking on and training apprentices. If anything in the last few years the amount of young people taken on as trainees seem to have increased as industry seems to have cottoned on to the fact they are actually a good idea.

As I keep saying, I'm absolutely not against uni education, in fact I think it's great, what I am against is the pushing of all people, regardless of their education abilities or their aptitude towards this route. When people say "oh you really should do a degree because otherwise you'll be stuck on the shop floor for the rest of your life" it really makes my blood boil.

 

[tlovatt]

Its going to take DECADES to sort out the mess that began in the 1980s and will result in a lot of people ending up in a poverty stricken old age...(not enough companies taking on graduates, too many vocations who take the attitude that those with a degree aren't fit to dirty their hands (despite there being a severe skills shortage in certain fields) - a perfectly "british" case of cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Whilst it is common to blame Thatcher for the decline of apprenticeships started in the mid 70's as a lot of the industries that provided the training were in rapid decline.

I would agree that there is a lot to be sorted out with too many useless degrees and too many useless apprenticeships currently being funded / undertaken and an underpinning education system that attempts to be blind to the fact that people have different abilities and hence different educational requirements.

 

[Rocketman]

One of the toolmakers I do work for is taking on apprentices. Multi national group who own the toolmaker.

 

[Sidewinder]

Having done both, I did a 4 year apprenticeship on the tools, C&G, originally, then went off my own back to college in my own time to do an HNC, then later on went the OU route to get BSc (Hons) & then MEng, I can see both routes I believe, especially as I have also been an employer.

If I was looking for a welder, a fitter, a toolmaker, turner, machinist, electrician etc. then craft apprenticeship NVQ3 with appropriate underpinning knowledge, these days this is a bit of a hobsons choice from my involvement with training providers & colleges.

IF I was looking for someone to do Finite Element Analysis or fluid dynamics modelling, at a desk/computer, where their work will have no direct physical output onto the "shop floor" as it were, then probably someone with a suitable degree.

If I was looking for someone to be say a welding engineer in a jobbing fabrication shop, to undertake design work with or on behalf of the customer, i.e. turn customers (say architects) ideas into sound engineering designs that would be adequately load bearing and able to be manufactured, then I would look for an apprentice served person with further education, a degree would be good, the higher the better, perhaps, but, I would prefer to see a route there, such has ONC/HNC/OND/HND etc. before the degree, or perhaps just even HNC/HND would be fine.

I don't believe that the two are mutually exclusive, but I don't believe that A levels and a degree equip you in any way for a craft position, I don't see that they are ever going to, as that is not what they are aimed to do.

Oh my HNC was part time local college, my degrees are OU.

Never got Chartered though, that was the next step, got made redundant part way through, and never picked it up again as I have been too busy trying to pay the bills since!