Who would you employ

[Rocketman]

Depends what you are going to do as an engineer. There's not much call for that knowledge if you are going to be a stress analyst or a process control guy. Most mech eng courses have some element of design for manufacture, but there isn't much time in a machine shop (if any). Guys who do production engineering do more (obviously) bet even then most have never driven a machine.

Yes correct people stream off into all kinds of specialist industries and they may well have very little use for the knowledge but it's as easy to say many don't need the knowledge of 50+ % of the units you do. How often do I use stress analysis so you could say the unit I did on that was a total waste of time.

Fact is the very basics of engineering start in a machine shop and this should be a early stage of the learning process in engineering. This is where not starting out on a OND level (don't know what that is called these days) instead doing A levels puts you majorly behind in the whole concept and boy do employers feel it when they get these people in.

 

[agrimog]

there are a great many so called "engineers" out there with all sorts of degrees and fancy loads of letters after there names, but in my experience the majority of them "couldnt put a nut in a monkeys mouth", as the saying goes, they can tell you why, how to, and explain the working, but to actually physically do the job, they dont have a clue, the only thing they seem to be any good at is pointing the finger and passing the blame

 

[the snooper]

there are a great many so called "engineers" out there with all sorts of degrees and fancy loads of letters after there names, but in my experience the majority of them "couldnt put a nut in a monkeys mouth", as the saying goes, they can tell you why, how to, and explain the working, but to actually physically do the job, they dont have a clue, the only thing they seem to be any good at is pointing the finger and passing the blame

you are spot, on at school me and a mate did motor vehicle studies as it was called both passed the exam and the extent of his ability with a car is to drive it, he is otherwise useless with a spanner

 

[MrFluffy]

Also, I want to be actually making stuff, not sitting at a computer, telling a CNC machine what to do or sitting in an office, telling others what to do. I couldn't care less that they may be better paying, they sound boring. I think the uni degree would get me a job doing either of these.

I can sympathise, years ago I was that same person wanting to be a mechanical engineer who ended up on a general engineering OND course because they didnt have enough call for mechanical engineers to run the course.
But today you need CNC skills to be useful to a company. Nobody can do everything in longhand and still turn a profit. I don't mean you should take a production operators job and run a cnc mill loading stock and hitting go and never learn anything else as a result of it killing you inside, or be that clueless person in the design shop that knows nothing about actual engineering in reality but what they picked up in a book, , but you should be taking any good chance to broaden your skillset on the computer side too, to make yourself more versitile and more attractive to a employer.
I love manual machines, until recently I had nothing nc in my workshop, but I go in there for a bit of relaxation away from computers and all my kit is scrounged together on a low budget and it doesn't have to earn a living. But... If I did this for a living, I'd have to embrace cnc machines to be profitable enough to stay alive against the competition. I'm not saying just learn cnc, but someone who knows mechanical engineering who has also embraced cnc as another string to their bow is worth far more than either skill alone on their own.
Ive began to stretch my legs a little in the cnc world too, I got into 3d printing for making quick prototypes and odd little brackets and widgets, and recently I added a (broken) cnc controlled machine to my stable and went through it understanding its insides and getting it going. I can't imagine using that in manual mode for anything but a quick cut off of something or testing it, but I understand it mechanically and thanks to being forced onto a general engineering career path, I got to grips with it electrically and electronically too.
And Ive just sort of had a slight enlightenment moment, the first time I drew something in cad, and loaded it into the machine (Its a 4 axis wire edm) and hit go, and out popped this perfect gear. And I can load that program in again and get a perfect gear each time. I've been trying to get my shaper to make the same gear and spent 10 hrs and failed.
And the people working in proto shops doing the interesting non production stuff, theyve had that same eureka moment, and cnc is just another tool at their disposal. There are times when it will be the answer, and times when it wont.
Funny, I work in IT now, and all I ever wanted to be was a mechanical engineer. I also dropped french at my options aged 13 because I'd never need to speak it...

 

[Maker]

What exactly does "general engineering" comprise of, because as much as I like manual machines, I do agree, CNC is necessary and I'd like to learn and use it, just not all day, every day. I'd also like to learn about electronics, just not only electronics. If there's a job that involves metalworking and electronics, tell me now.

I dropped French when I picked my options but now they've changed it so when my brother chooses his options this year, he will be doing French or German

 

[Wedg1e]

French? I'd have sooner spent extra periods doing French at school than wasting time on religious education and PE. We also only had Spanish as an alternative which isn't really a challenge when you already do French, but we didn't have a teacher of German so Spanish was the alternative - alternative, that is, to Tech Drawing, which you weren't allowed to take if you weren't also doing wood- or metal-work. In a school of over 1000 kids class sizes were already stretched so they gave the 'cleverer' kids the arty-farty subjects and left the craft studies for the rest. So after 14 I didn't do anything craft-wise (I also had to drop Art and take Latin). You could also only take Physics or the then-new subject known as Computer Studies if you were in the top set for Maths, which I wasn't. But you had to take a science subject so I spent two years copying down what the teacher wrote on the blackboard without explaining any of it and scraped a CSE 'B' in Chemistry (which is about a grade D or E at GCSE I guess). I can't remember any of it now apart from you should always add acid to water, not the other way around
Apart from getting you into the next level of education, the subjects you study at school are irrelevant IMHO, they certainly had sweet f-all bearing on what I ended up doing for work. It was my hobbies as a late teen (radio and electronics) that got me started in my multi-disciplined techie role.

Now of course, my mates and I take biking holidays to the Alps every year and a couple of us usually manage to string enough German, French and Italian together to get by when ordering food and booze

 

[MrFluffy]

This is what rocketman is talking about above, they dropped the "ordinary" off the title of "Ordinary National Diploma" (OND) and now its just National Diploma or ND for short, still runs though :-
http://www.tynemet.ac.uk/department/engineering/level-3-btec-national-diploma-in-engineering

When I did it, there was possibly more emphasis on mech eng and less on "project management" and other "soft skills" which being mandatory to my cold analytical mind make me want to go throw up in a bucket in the corner to be honest. I also remember finding the maths hard going which was a required element of the mech eng side. Even on the first year we were expected to know calculus and transposition of forumlae at a much higher level than secondary school seemed to have prepared me and it was a bit sink or swim at first which was a bit of a shock as I did think I was pretty sharp at maths coming out of school.
My point is you seemed initially to be a bit "I want to be a mechanical engineer", thinking that involved just running a machine in a job shop or something. But general engineering will give you a basic grounding and skills in areas you don't think fit well that vision now but will later on. And is a better foundation in general than going into a uni and doing a specialist degree. You need to be a good all rounder to make yourself as useful as you can.
If your really lucky, sometimes a company will sponsor you to do a nd in a engineering discipline as part of a apprenticeship. A quick google reveals rolls royce etc still do this. Competition for these will be tough, you should already be thinking how to present yourself and checking out potential options for this, as every like minded soul and his dog will be wanting the same.

 

[Maker]

That Tyne college might be a bit far for me WSC, my local college offers this which sounds very good and similar to your one. I'll contact them next year for more info about it but I think my chances for getting on are better because the entry requirements don't mention English. Also, it's part time, one day per week so I could get a job on the other 4 days. It also says you can progress to a HNC, HND or foundation degree. It seems to cover all areas and is pretty much perfect for me.

 

[MrFluffy]

I don't know if thats equivalent to btec national level, I suspect not, it may be nearer btec first given the part time nature. You have to be careful as colleges are great at overselling things in brochures, but you arrive and any numpty off the street could cope with them when you are there. Which if you want to learn, and stretch yourself, will be excrutiatingly boring. I'll let someone with more up to date experience comment further though, but caveat emptor...
The best way if your considering that course, is to get a job where the company is willing to invest in training you 1 day a week and who sponsors you onto it.
Also, it will be a slower path than the big bang of A levels then degree, and you may find yourself getting sick of education at the end and not completing. I spent 5 years doing general engineering and then automotive engineering and by the end of it I was so sick of it I took a job washing cars in preference of doing any more, I'm still only two or three modules short of my final certification, 20 years later...

 

[Rocketman]

That Tyne college might be a bit far for me WSC, my local college offers this which sounds very good and similar to your one. I'll contact them next year for more info about it but I think my chances for getting on are better because the entry requirements don't mention English. Also, it's part time, one day per week so I could get a job on the other 4 days. It also says you can progress to a HNC, HND or foundation degree. It seems to cover all areas and is pretty much perfect for me.

I think, and as Mrfluffy says it's all getting confusing now days!, that is like the old ONC in engineering? Where as the old OND in engineering was full time and one day a week was spent in the engineering work shop working through a book of various projects you needed to do - which would ensure you used all machines and basic skills of engineering.

So in the old days if you did the OND in engineering it was quite easy to pick up an apprenticeship where you would start work and go on and do the HNC in engineering part time (one day+evening followed by a second evening in the week). If you didn't pick up a apprenticeship you could do the HND in engineering instead full time which has more units in.

So with a HNC or HND in engineer you reduce the time of the degree as the units done are subtracted. So say you did a HNC with 10 units in it and the degree is 30 units you only need to do 20 units to get the degree.

Also to really mix it up we did a few extra bits on our HNC - meant an extra night at college. Each single city and guilds was equivalent to 1 unit if I remember so we did a few of them on top to reduce the units to cover a degree. I can remember one as being quality assurance.

 

[Maker]

I think, and as Mrfluffy says it's all getting confusing now days!, that is like the old ONC in engineering? Where as the old OND in engineering was full time and one day a week was spent in the engineering work shop working through a book of various projects you needed to do - which would ensure you used all machines and basic skills of engineering.

So in the old days if you did the OND in engineering it was quite easy to pick up an apprenticeship where you would start work and go on and do the HNC in engineering part time (one day+evening followed by a second evening in the week). If you didn't pick up a apprenticeship you could do the HND in engineering instead full time which has more units in.

So with a HNC or HND in engineer you reduce the time of the degree as the units done are subtracted. So say you did a HNC with 10 units in it and the degree is 30 units you only need to do 20 units to get the degree.

Also to really mix it up we did a few extra bits on our HNC - meant an extra night at college. Each single city and guilds was equivalent to 1 unit if I remember so we did a few of them on top to reduce the units to cover a degree. I can remember one as being quality assurance.

What are units?

 

[Rocketman]

Gosh now I'm really going back to try and explain - I'm in my 40's now so it's some time ago.
A unit is like a single subject or lesson. Some minor subjects only carry 1/2 weight so only equal 0.5 unit - we did a stainless steel 1/2 unit which was a lesson for 1 hour for half a year which you did obviously the usual course work and examines in. The n for the other half of the year we picked up something else for that hour lesson each weak.

Anyway in a degree if I remember the total number of units or subjects needs to be something like 30?

Now the level/number that HNC units are at would be equivalent to the first year of a degree and would allow entrance straight into the second year.

With the HND being full time you do a hell of a lot more units or subjects if you like and I think (can't rightly remember though) Many will be at a harder level. With this it can sling shot you straight into the third year of a degree.

Adding to this you can do a HNC part time while you work and then just do the extra units part time to make a HND over the following year.

One thing though there are essential units you have to do to make a HNC, HND and degree. Finite stress analysis for instance I think is one of them. So you can't just pick easy ones

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/higher-national-certificates-and-higher-national-diplomas

 

[puffernutter]

When I started work (1978!) I did a Student Apprenticeship with the Westinghouse Brake and Signal Co Limited and a thin sandwich course (4 years) at the University of Bath ending up with a BSc (Hons) in Electronic and Electrical engineering. During the apprenticeship I covered every part of the company (and it was a big company then doing everything from automatic trains in Hong Kong to petrol tanker delivery systems at Fawley. I was also sent on a 12 week mechanical engineering course at Rugby where I was taught to turn, mill, surface grind, weld, solder, tinsmith etc. In fact that course set me up fr my hobby. Since finishing the apprenticeship I may have used some of the things I learned a few times, but what counted for most was that I understood how a manufacturing company worked from the goods in to the finished product and I had been physically involved in every part of that process. That was invaluable and set me up for my future career where I am now C ENg., FIET, FSaRS and FIRSE. I'm also Chair of the IET Transport Sector.

 

[atomant48]

I'm also Chair of the IET Transport Sector.

That looks like a pretty interesting site.

 

[puffernutter]

It is fascinating! I am a railway signalling engineer (in the safety discipline) by profession, however as Chair of the Sector I get involved in all sorts of automotive, aerospace and marine technology. We ran a very successful dinner debate on autonomous vehicles and we have also produced 3 "Insights" on autonomous vehicles in the aerospace, rail and automotive sectors. I am also privileged to be a judge on the IET Innovations Award panel looking at the transport sector. It is amazing what some of the entrants come up with and not all "blue sky" thinking, some is fascinating stuff and in the real world. This year's winner was a group that designed a partitioned brake pad. Working on the fact that the brake disc travels at different speed from the centre out, different material is used in the pad to allow for that and improve the braking performance. You don't have to be a member of the IET to register on the website - www.theiet.org

Cheers

Peter

 

[Kent]

for a hands on job, mechanical engineering related; someone with a level 3 NVQ and 3&½ years experience (from an apprenticeship) or someone with A-levels and degree in Mech' Eng' but no experience?

We were talking about what I want to do when I leave school;

I'd rather get an apprenticeship and get hands on experience, a decent qual' by the end of it, get paid throughout and have the option to go on to uni should I want to. I think this would make me more employable and I could have a real job, doing what I like by the time I'm 19 but I would all ready have 4 years of experience (and money) under my belt so I'd be used to working long hours and not getting much time off.

Everyone else in the conversation (mum, aunt, nan and grandad) all think I should do A levels then uni which would leave me with a better qual' but NO work experience, finally getting a job when I'm 21 and with a big student loan hanging over me. Grandad thinks this person would be more employable, even though he said it himself once that "qualifications only get you your first job, experience gets you the rest"

Also, I want to be actually making stuff, not sitting at a computer, telling a CNC machine what to do or sitting in an office, telling others what to do. I couldn't care less that they may be better paying, they sound boring. I think the uni degree would get me a job doing either of these.

I want to work in a small business, making one offs, not a bigger business, making hundreds of the same part, day in, day out.

What do you think would be best for me?

Get the best formal quals you can first. Fact is times have changed gain practical skills via part time work and private courses if you must. Your career will be more limited in progression without a degree even if it is in a useless to the job subject. Britain does not value practical skills that can be bought in - look at wages paid to time served guys in industry and remember that this will be your lot for life or until there are younger fitter, keener guys willing to do your job. Have a look at rates of pay and all jobs become a little boring in time, wait for your first 200 off job and you will long for a day or two at a desk shuffling papers and making phone calls
Formal quals cannot hold you in a job or guarantee you a good one from the get go (far from it) but they will open more doors. without them the doors will likely remain closed for your generation

 

[atomant48]

^^ spot on.

 

[daleyd]

It's worthy advice, IF that's what suits the OP. And there's the rub - education to degree level isn't for everyone and I'm a firm believer in the fact that there is a market out there for proper hands on engineers(Electrical/mechanical or whatever).

I don't want to get in a mud slinging match about are degrees better/worse than apprentice training BUT there seems to be a mindset that without a degree people cant somehow progress.

That's patently not true, and I get >20 jobs emailed pretty much every day paying 30K plus (Some much more plus!) asking specifically for people with HNC/HND quals and certainly quite a few higher end jobs are advertised as degree OR HNC/HND.

Also remember that nowadays you will be coming out of uni with pretty hefty debt levels, plus you will have the same quals as any other number of degree qualified uni leavers. Come out of an apprenticeship, you will have real world hands on training, no/little debt and hopefully still be working for a company.

My advice to the OP would be to think about what you are getting into and weigh up whats best for you, there are certainly many many upsides to having a degree, and only a fool would say otherwise, but there are also downsides to going down that route.

 

[Rocketman]

Daleyd is correct Engineering isn't like other carries HNC/HND can get you all the way to the top. The only reason I am not/haven't been in management is because I have turned the positions down (which really pee'd off my employers) - would bore me to death.

I have beaten guys off with degrees on several occasions for design jobs with my HNC. It's the training, experience and you that count often.

30K+ with a HNC in engineering is easy achievable.

 

[daleyd]

Same here Rocketman, many of the people I did my apprenticeship with are now in pretty senior positions, I and a few others have stayed doing a "hands on" type role. My reasons were chiefly because A: I really enjoy it and B: with a bit of overtime/occasional offshore job I earn more than most of the manager grade positions with (Almost!!) zero stress and BS.

I'm certainly not knocking the degree route, but there is another way - I and many more have done it and it works well. A good work ethic, good interpersonal skills and the ability to listen and lead when necessary are not something you will learn on a degree, but those are the things that will get you places - to the very top if you want it.