Who would you employ

[Kent]

Daleyd is correct Engineering isn't like other carries HNC/HND can get you all the way to the top. The only reason I am not/haven't been in management is because I have turned the positions down (which really pee'd off my employers) - would bore me to death.

I have beaten guys off with degrees on several occasions for design jobs with my HNC. It's the training, experience and you that count often.

30K+ with a HNC in engineering is easy achievable.

And that's the limit for a young guy now (cut some off that and you have a regular go no place fast job ), in the past you could more than quadruple that salary on HND. Two guys go for a job both capable of task at hand, one has a degree HR dept look at it and guess who gets the interview. I am past being employed by another and have made my money without anything but a few O levels though having young uns and a wife who is in what she calls "the real world" (a director of a large FE provider) she regular tells me I couldn't do what I did today with my schooling.
I used to get head hunters contacting me and often I got jobs sent in asking for all sorts of skills and quals I didn't actually have, when I questioned them they said " it don't matter in your case you are already known in the industry, that's just for the young guys".
What you need bear in mind in only about 3%-5% of my generation did degrees.

 

[daleyd]

And that's the limit for a young guy now (cut some off that and you have a regular go no place fast job ), in the past you could more than quadruple that salary on HND. Two guys go for a job both capable of task at hand, one has a degree HR dept look at it and guess who gets the interview. I am past being employed by another and have made my money without anything but a few O levels though having young uns and a wife who is in what she calls "the real world" (a director of a large FE provider) she regular tells me I couldn't do what I did today with my schooling.
I used to get head hunters contacting me and often I got jobs sent in asking for all sorts of skills and quals I didn't actually have, when I questioned them they said " it don't matter in your case you are already known in the industry, that's just for the young guys".
What you need bear in mind in only about 3%-5% of my generation did degrees.

Eh?? My basic salary is over 30k and by the time you add pension, overtime, on call and bonus etc it's well above 40. And I took a pay cut from my last job to go there. That's about the going rate for what I do, I'm not particularly well paid. Oil and gas sector you can add considerably more to that.

A few guys I trained with are in 100k plus jobs with a hnc.

The opportunities are there for the right people, having a degree may help but not having one is not the end of the world.

 

[puffernutter]

I wasn't necessarily saying that a degree was the way to go, what I tried to say that what benefited me most was the 5 year apprenticeship that taught me everything about how a company works from Goods in to Dispatch. The degree has been useful, but one company I applied to only employed people with a 1st Class Honours or 2nd higher degree (most had MSc and Doctorates!) As all I had was a 3rd, I didn't reckon I stood much chance, but my 20+ years in the industry opened the door and I have 7 very good years with that company as a Principal Consulatant (my charge out rate at that time was £1000/day - shame I didn't get anywhere near that myself!)
Cheers
Peter

 

[Kent]

Eh?? My basic salary is over 30k and by the time you add pension, overtime, on call and bonus etc it's well above 40. And I took a pay cut from my last job to go there. That's about the going rate for what I do, I'm not particularly well paid. Oil and gas sector you can add considerably more to that.

A few guys I trained with are in 100k plus jobs with a hnc.

The opportunities are there for the right people, having a degree may help but not having one is not the end of the world.

And are you in your early 20's though just setting out TODAY? I am quite / very well aware of what could once be done by previous generations. Like I state people of my generation that took degree courses were very limited but once a qual becomes common it is used in selection. Many now go straight down the route of masters after their degree and even some of us oldies are taking that route in certain lines of work. I think I already pointed out I have no degree and I sure did more than ok personally

Case in point my own F.I.L recently retired from a serious level post internationally earning far more than what many might deal possible with HND, you wont ever see this in future generations. Do I think degrees are by their own virtue an improvement in stds? No! do I think they are required in the younger generations? Yep!

To the OP if you want people to tell you what you want to hear your asking in the right place but if you want to get on without a real ceiling to your career then I suggest you get all the paper quals you can while still young with your family supporting you rather than you supporting a family of your own.

 

[Kent]

I wasn't necessarily saying that a degree was the way to go, what I tried to say that what benefited me most was the 5 year apprenticeship that taught me everything about how a company works from Goods in to Dispatch. The degree has been useful, but one company I applied to only employed people with a 1st Class Honours or 2nd higher degree (most had MSc and Doctorates!) As all I had was a 3rd, I didn't reckon I stood much chance, but my 20+ years in the industry opened the door and I have 7 very good years with that company as a Principal Consulatant (my charge out rate at that time was £1000/day - shame I didn't get anywhere near that myself!)
Cheers
Peter

Please note the age group and generation. Its always been an issue but I doubt its an issue that can be side lined in todays selection procedures an HR ask for degrees for jobs at the local Tesco etc.

 

[daleyd]

The thing is Kent, I actually agree with your first point ie get the most quals you can, with a couple of caveats.

1 being that not everyone is suited to doing a degree. If it's not for you, then better to go down the vocational route.

2 being that I don't have your crystal ball whereby I can see into the future. Undoubtedly degrees are becoming more commonplace, but it doesn't remove the need for hands on engineers. Only last month I was on an oil platform with some recently time served apprentices who were earning much more than I am, and they are being groomed already for promotion which will take them who knows where? Oim or even further? Having a degree helps, but it isn't, and won't be, the be all and end all.

 

[Rocketman]

From what I have seen recently it is totally going back to apprenticeships in engineering but we will see. Loads of engineering companies are taking them on again.

 

[daleyd]

From what I have seen recently it is totally going back to apprenticeships in engineering but we will see. Loads of engineering companies are taking them on again.

The Germans never stopped, they've always had, and to this day continue to have, a strong vocational training ethic in engineering. Certainly hasn't done their manufacturing sector any harm!!

 

[Maker]

Yep, it definitely seems clear, I should do an apprenticeship and then degree afterwards if necessary.

 

[daleyd]

It's entirely down to your own preference, and what you are like academically and what you want to do afterwards.

I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from doing degree level studies IF that's what they want to do. But equally, don't be put off by the naysayers that say you must have a degree.

 

[tlovatt]

As others have said, it is not a simple choice and it depends upon what your long term goals are.

Apprenticeship followed normally by shop floor / hands on work (although some apprentices do end up in office jobs without having a hands on position - a bit of a waste of a skilled person IMHO)
Apprenticeship followed by a site / mobile job
Degree followed by an office job.

In the short term the apprenticeship will make you financially better off - doing a degree is expensive plus you are not earning, followed by starting salaries lower than people on the shop floor, and if you are happy to keep on doing a lot of hours then a site / mobile job can possibly give greater whole life earnings than a degree.

But

With a degree you can have (what I find to be) more varied and interesting jobs and have the potential to earn more over your lifetime than a factory / workshop position.

To give you some typical figures for my previous employer, but note that industries vary greatly:

4th year apprentice circa £22k which then rises to the skilled rate of around £31k after a few year. This is basic salary and then there is paid overtime. If you stick to a 39 hour week then this is what you get but people typically do a few hours of overtime per week and earn circa £36k

Mobile / site people tend to have lower basic salaries but work longer hours plus incur less personal costs (meals whilst away are paid for by the company), with working lots of overtime (you may as well if your are away anyway) earnings are commonly in the £45k to £55k range.

A graduate engineer would start on circa £26k but then a professional engineer with some management responsibility (circa 10 years experience) is earning just shy of £60k basic (overtime is unpaid). For that figure you would normally work a few extra hours per week (probably averaging 42 to 44 hours per week) but as workload varied you could end up doing some long weeks, but then finish early during quieter times.

My words of caution would be that many mobile / site people get addicted to the money but end up being unhappy with the job / being away from home and working such long hours and effectively end up trapped. Also a degree will normally provide you with better career prospects and opportunities to progress - but this depends if you want to become a manager - it seems to be taken for granted that this is wat everyone should do, but a lot of people are not suited to these positions.

I do not for one second regret doing a degree - but that is what suited me and I have enjoyed my work since.

In terms of finding new jobs / being made redundant - being made redundant is now quite common and whilst unpleasant is now so widespread that it does not count against people. Good staff are hard to find, even in a recession, if you have general skills, a good attitude and fit in at work you will be able to find a job in any economy so I would not let this affect your decision.

My final bit of advice would be to do what you enjoy - just make sure you know what you enjoy and realise the difference between a hobby and a job for the rest of your life!

 

[Kent]

The thing is Kent, I actually agree with your first point ie get the most quals you can, with a couple of caveats.

1 being that not everyone is suited to doing a degree. If it's not for you, then better to go down the vocational route.

2 being that I don't have your crystal ball whereby I can see into the future. Undoubtedly degrees are becoming more commonplace, but it doesn't remove the need for hands on engineers. Only last month I was on an oil platform with some recently time served apprentices who were earning much more than I am, and they are being groomed already for promotion which will take them who knows where? Oim or even further? Having a degree helps, but it isn't, and won't be, the be all and end all.

1.you don't need a crystal ball, you can just look at the job adverts for those under 30 ish today. No not all are up to pre-degree std, in fact its a far bigger disgrace to our nation most involved with vocational training have to bring a very high proportion of the apprentices up to std in their schooling before they can even commence their courses (talking basic maths and English). Its never too late to learn though an many do better in FE than they did at school as the environment is so much different. Of course many who do well at school flop out later when its time to graft by yourself without constant monitoring, I suppose the thing is you have to like the subject and have the desire / determination to succeed. In fact if you cant do it at Uni you wont ever need that degree in your work life because unless you marry the boss or something you likely wont get the chance to rise that high

2. Hey I also made it pretty good with less, the fact remains though it wasn't really available unless you were in the top 5% at school or came from a somewhat privileged background. What a young guy will find today is he hits a ceiling that one simply cannot get through without that degree or even masters and even if you have the cash later in life it aint an easy route to take to give up your time and money when mortgages, kids and debts need paying.

 

[daleyd]

1.you don't need a crystal ball, you can just look at the job adverts for those under 30 ish today. No not all are up to pre-degree std, in fact its a far bigger disgrace to our nation most involved with vocational training have to bring a very high proportion of the apprentices up to std in their schooling before they can even commence their courses (talking basic maths and English). Its never too late to learn though an many do better in FE than they did at school as the environment is so much different. Of course many who do well at school flop out later when its time to graft by yourself without constant monitoring, I suppose the thing is you have to like the subject and have the desire / determination to succeed. In fact if you cant do it at Uni you wont ever need that degree in your work life because unless you marry the boss or something you likely wont get the chance to rise that high

2. Hey I also made it pretty good with less, the fact remains though it wasn't really available unless you were in the top 5% at school or came from a somewhat privileged background. What a young guy will find today is he hits a ceiling that one simply cannot get through without that degree or even masters and even if you have the cash later in life it aint an easy route to take to give up your time and money when mortgages, kids and debts need paying.

Hmm, while I do agree with the majority of your points, I just don't get this ceiling thing, but I guess we have differing opinions and that's that! I can certainly appreciate what you say though, from my wife's point of view in the nhs your point is certainly true - you cannot progress now without a masters even in nursing.

Engineering though, I still see as being different and there is still a high value placed on vocational training. I travel to lots of different companies in many varied industries with my job and I still see lots of Middle/top management coming from apprentice schemes, and I just don't see this changing, in fact as companies now realise the value of vocational training and are starting to ramp up apprentice training again it can only get better. As I've said previous I still see lots of jobs advertised as degree OR hnc/hnd + experience.

But as I said that's just my opinion, and we all know that they are like @r53holes - everyone has one and they usually stink! Have a good new year! Dale.

 

[malcolm]

A young friend of mine who would make a very good engineer hasn't been able to get an engineering job in the automotive industry because of the HR tick box degree requirement. He is stuck in a technician role.

Engineer is an ambiguous term these days. The word engineer can cover brilliant innovators like Sydney Camm, famous for managing Hawker aircraft designs. It can also cover the dim folk who come out to mess up your gas boiler. And everything inbetween.

Engineering degrees aren't often practical which is a shame. Mine was full of mathematics and deriving stuff from first principals. I struggled with it but my computer does all that stuff for me these days. I don't regret doing the degree. It also taught ways of thinking which have been handy. It opened doors.

Though I didn't have to pay for my degree. These days with all the loans I might well say sod it and start a building company. Builder across the road has a Range Rover Sport. I don't. Being bright and working hard is the trick to work life whatever you choose.

 

[Kent]

Hmm, while I do agree with the majority of your points, I just don't get this ceiling thing, but I guess we have differing opinions and that's that! I can certainly appreciate what you say though, from my wife's point of view in the nhs your point is certainly true - you cannot progress now without a masters even in nursing.

Engineering though, I still see as being different and there is still a high value placed on vocational training. I travel to lots of different companies in many varied industries with my job and I still see lots of Middle/top management coming from apprentice schemes, and I just don't see this changing, in fact as companies now realise the value of vocational training and are starting to ramp up apprentice training again it can only get better. As I've said previous I still see lots of jobs advertised as degree OR hnc/hnd + experience.

But as I said that's just my opinion, and we all know that they are like @r53holes - everyone has one and they usually stink! Have a good new year! Dale.

quite agree on the last point! Take the NHS you mention the direct manager wont likely even see a CV till its been though HR these days and guess what Meanwhile Bob Roberts engineering might well take HND over a degree Candidate (because that's what he did) But a CV to Siemens will today land in HR and degree in engineering will go over HND unless the guy is well known and of an age.
I think most of us from most of the trades will have seen poor (and some appalling) very well qualified guys and some great guys without so much as an o level to their name. You don't get the ceiling thing? Yet you bring it up within your wife's line of work? Ex-forces and still don't get glass ceiling?

 

[Kent]

A young friend of mine who would make a very good engineer hasn't been able to get an engineering job in the automotive industry because of the HR tick box degree requirement. He is stuck in a technician role.

Engineer is an ambiguous term these days. The word engineer can cover brilliant innovators like Sydney Camm, famous for managing Hawker aircraft designs. It can also cover the dim folk who come out to mess up your gas boiler. And everything inbetween.

Engineering degrees aren't often practical which is a shame. Mine was full of mathematics and deriving stuff from first principals. I struggled with it but my computer does all that stuff for me these days. I don't regret doing the degree. It also taught ways of thinking which have been handy. It opened doors.

Though I didn't have to pay for my degree. These days with all the loans I might well say sod it and start a building company. Builder across the road has a Range Rover Sport. I don't. Being bright and working hard is the trick to work life whatever you choose.

I think I remember Whitter also had no formal training? Chances of the government and military letting a guy like that in today? Quals are no guarantee of earning potential indeed if they lock you into a comfortable job I think you might be less determined to make it on your own as you have easier options, digging footings and getting rained off for days etc. focused many a mind

 

[DrDeAtH]

A degree doesn't mean that you are more qualified for the job... Experience counts
I know people who have a degree, still come across as thickies.....

 

[daleyd]

quite agree on the last point! Take the NHS you mention the direct manager wont likely even see a CV till its been though HR these days and guess what Meanwhile Bob Roberts engineering might well take HND over a degree Candidate (because that's what he did) But a CV to Siemens will today land in HR and degree in engineering will go over HND unless the guy is well known and of an age.
I think most of us from most of the trades will have seen poor (and some appalling) very well qualified guys and some great guys without so much as an o level to their name. You don't get the ceiling thing? Yet you bring it up within your wife's line of work? Ex-forces and still don't get glass ceiling?

Ex forces, and my old class mate is now a commander, perfect example, so no I don't get it. If your good enough you will get to the top.

Many have risen to the rank of admiral starting out as apprentices, the divisions at hms Raleigh were all named after admirals who started as artificers.

I get it in some lines of work, but forces and engineering, and indeed quite a few others, it's just not there. (I hasten to add not in every company, there are of course some which still operate that way.)

 

[Rocketman]

quite agree on the last point! Take the NHS you mention the direct manager wont likely even see a CV till its been though HR these days and guess what Meanwhile Bob Roberts engineering might well take HND over a degree Candidate (because that's what he did) But a CV to Siemens will today land in HR and degree in engineering will go over HND unless the guy is well known and of an age.
I think most of us from most of the trades will have seen poor (and some appalling) very well qualified guys and some great guys without so much as an o level to their name. You don't get the ceiling thing? Yet you bring it up within your wife's line of work? Ex-forces and still don't get glass ceiling?

Siemens , Rolls-Royce, etc easy to give examples of companies HR departments which only look at degrees.

On the other hand I can give you examples of companies who actively seek experience/knowledge. In the tool designing game it's been known for a long time that the automotive manufacturers poach tool designs who have shown great knowledge because with their experience they can design the plastic parts on cars far better than anyone else - are they bothered what qualifications they have - no.

You need to remember in the game it's who you know and how good you are. At that point these HR departments have zero influence.

 

[Maker]

Lets have some examples then.