Who would you employ

[Maker]

for a hands on job, mechanical engineering related; someone with a level 3 NVQ and 3&½ years experience (from an apprenticeship) or someone with A-levels and degree in Mech' Eng' but no experience?

We were talking about what I want to do when I leave school;

I'd rather get an apprenticeship and get hands on experience, a decent qual' by the end of it, get paid throughout and have the option to go on to uni should I want to. I think this would make me more employable and I could have a real job, doing what I like by the time I'm 19 but I would all ready have 4 years of experience (and money) under my belt so I'd be used to working long hours and not getting much time off.

Everyone else in the conversation (mum, aunt, nan and grandad) all think I should do A levels then uni which would leave me with a better qual' but NO work experience, finally getting a job when I'm 21 and with a big student loan hanging over me. Grandad thinks this person would be more employable, even though he said it himself once that "qualifications only get you your first job, experience gets you the rest"

Also, I want to be actually making stuff, not sitting at a computer, telling a CNC machine what to do or sitting in an office, telling others what to do. I couldn't care less that they may be better paying, they sound boring. I think the uni degree would get me a job doing either of these.

I want to work in a small business, making one offs, not a bigger business, making hundreds of the same part, day in, day out.

What do you think would be best for me?

 

[bigegg]

Apprenticeship + experience for the sort of job you're after IMHO.
You could always do the mech eng BA with the open university in your own time.

On the other hand, degree would land you a job designing stuff - "inventing", whereas apprenticeship is likely to lead to production work, then into supervising production work.

 

[Maker]

Apprenticeship + experience for the sort of job you're after IMHO.
You could always do the mech eng BA with the open university in your own time.

On the other hand, degree would land you a job designing stuff - "inventing", whereas apprenticeship is likely to lead to production work, then into supervising production work.

That's what I wanted to hear.

 

[daleyd]

^^ lig big egg said, for the type of job you want to do an apprenticeship seems the way to go.

If you show an aptitude you could always go back and do a degree later on, as a mature student.

For what it's worth I did an apprenticeship, ended up with a hnc and have never felt the need for a degree. (I'm not against them, just that for the type of work I do experience probably counts for more)

 

[rkde]

I employ quite a few mechanical engineers, I am quite picky but whilst I have several graduate only students I tend to find their knowledge base vs what they wish to be paid is a mile apart. Graduates are just not at the same level as someone with the same time served apprentice. I would suggest as I have spoken with many companies about this decision that the graduate is missing most if not all the engineering basics...

If you do the graduate route then please ensure that you take a placement year else you will be harder to employ even if you are very bright. I find I am employing car guys graduates due to the fact they are also hands on and whilst they do not know the basics exactly they are more self educated and have a better idea of what is possible

The biggest problem is gaining entrance into other areas without the degree can hold you back. Our company policy was must have a 2:1 degree minimum though this has been changed recently.

I would advise either a levels etc with summer work and placement work or go down apprenticeship route

 

[SmartWerks]

Employers want degrees, even for jobs that don't require them.

If you can go to uni go. Anyone can get nvq but not everyone can get a degree. Your only young once so make the most of it and the connections you make at uni will be invaluable plus all the fun you will have. That's how the world works now

good luck to you, you sound like a very intelligent young man.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

I would recommend the apprentiship route. Unless you can guarantee a well paid job in engineering at the end of your degree why saddle yourself with a £50,000 debt and end up earning the same amount as someone who has gone down the apprentiship route.
If you are an academic achiever than by all means take the university route but if you are going to come out with a 2.1 or a Desmond you will be competing in a large field and an employers market.
Lots of graduates that I know are working in completely different fields to their degrees, to their dissfaction, as they got fed up waiting for opportunities to come up in their chosen field.
A degree will help make you more employable with a chance of better renumeration but no guarantees that it will be in something that you enjoy doing.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

Oh and make sure whatever route you take you learn to read a tape measure, it used to drive me nuts when asking a graduate or apprentice to cut a bar/pipe/tube "fifteen ninety eight long" and they come back across the workshop beaming with a length about the size of a pencil!
"OK let's try that again, I want you to cut it one thousand five hundred and ninety eight millimetres long".
After 10 minutes you realise that they haven't returned so you go and find them where they are in a state of distress as they say " I can't find anything that long" even though they are stood in a store full of 6.1m lengths of steel!

 

[CompoSimmonite]

My son decided he was in a dead end job so went to uni as a mature student. He got a 2:1 and the best work he's since been able to get is 4 hours a week part time plus any other shifts he can manage to scrounge off other people ! He's applied for hundreds of jobs and has given up on trying to use his degree so now it's anything that pays. Whilst he enjoyed the uni experience he's far worse off that he ever was in the dead end job plus has massive student loan. He's 30 BTW and still lives at home / can't afford to run a car. If it wasn't the fact he's still with us then he's be on benefits in a grotty bedsit somewhere as his pay isn't enough to live.
My opinion therefore is apprentiship and degree after either P/t or Open Uni.

 

[bs2236]

I did the apprenticeship route many years ago and learnt my trade by both college (block release) & working. This served me well until i reached my mid twenties an realised i wanted something more. All doors were closed until i went back to college and did my ONC, HNC & HND at night school after work. Once employers realised you were prepared to put yourself out doors started to open. The mix of practical experience and qualifications were invaluable and were held in high regard by employers.

A few years later i started on the Open University BEng, this was incredibly difficult but very rewarding, i even managed a MEng but the process took 9 years from start to finish. The degrees allowed me to become Chartered which leads to a whole new level of challenges and career progression.

I am not trying to say dont go to Uni straight away, but trying to show you it can be done like above but be aware it plays havoc with family life later working full time and studying!

My eldest is 17 and just going through the same decisions that you are, he has done Engineering at college and has been offered a place at Sheffield Hallam University on the BEng but is struggling with the prospect of the massive debt.

what ever decision you make you must not look back, just go for it and make the most of the opportunities that present themselves.

 

[normspanners]

I think somebody with experience, will always be the better engineer than a book learner,
Along side the tape /rule thing is, it beggars belief that kids come out of school and can't tell the time on a normal clock, you would be surprised how many cant.
A person that is genuinely interested and observant in his chosen subject, who asks question and looks at the way, and why things do what they do, will always win over a person that has just been told how things happen. IMO
Terry Leary was the boss of Tescos he started stacking shelves there. I know these type of jobs opportunities, are on the decline, it seems that you need a degree to empty bins NOT that there is anything wrong with that job but you catch my drift.
My nephew was going to go to uni, but started at a restaurant washing dishes and is now assistant manager there, because he proved he can do it. That is because he is punctual, tidy and polite but can make his point if needed.

 

[Maker]

My opinion therefore is apprenticeship and degree after either P/t or Open Uni.

That's certainly sounds like the best option but what exactly is p/t and open uni and how do they differ from regular uni?

 

[DrDeAtH]

Apprenticeship + experience for the sort of job you're after IMHO.
You could always do the mech eng BA with the open university in your own time.

On the other hand, degree would land you a job designing stuff - "inventing", whereas apprenticeship is likely to lead to production work, then into supervising production work.

Exactly this....

Having experience will pay dividends from the off as you will just need to familiaiarise yourself with the job, instead of having to learn it from scrarch.

Do the degree in your spare time if possible. Some employers may even pay towards it if they can see the value in you as a decent employee.

 

[daleyd]

That's certainly sounds like the best option but what exactly is p/t and open uni and how do they differ from regular uni?

P/t is part time. open university is a distance learning organisation which allows people more flexibility in doing their degrees rather than a traditional university.

 

[bigegg]

That's certainly sounds like the best option but what exactly is p/t and open uni and how do they differ from regular uni?

p/t = "night school"

OU is the same as regular uni, but rather than sitting in lectures, you watch podcasts/DVDs - which means you can (and must [1] )
work at the same time.
[1] Student loans are available for the OU, but they will only loan enough to cover course fees, NOT living expenses,
unlike a traditional uni.

 

[shtu]

I agree with all the above, with one big caveat,

You do have to think about the longer-term. When you are in your 40s-50s, will you still want to be in a damp draughty workshop building things? Will you be physically able to, or will knackered knees, dodgy back and failing hearing finish you off? Will the wages a mech. eng. job pays be enough later in life when your needs\expectations have risen? Will you have the time to devote to a degree later in life?

Quite a few people I know have had non-degree, mostly-manual, mostly-outdoor jobs up until their mid-40s, then found that they were struggling with the physical demands of the job, and it was becoming hard to keep up with guys 20 years younger. One in particular went from landscaping to adult education, not because they especially wanted to, but because they could see they were starting to struggle with the work.

It's also very, very common now for degrees to be mandatory for all kinds of jobs where you previously could have "worked your way up" like your granddad did, and for it to be an absolute requirement at HR-CV-sift stage. You simply may never get in front of the interview panel to show them how good you are, as in larger companies HR and agencies with no real knowledge of the job are the first hurdle to clear.

In my own (tech) industry it's now getting quite common for me to explain that when I left school approx. 5% of leavers went to uni, and when the HR-gonk who asked the question did, it was over 30%.

Me? No degree, don't regret it, but can see where it would have had its advantages.

Would I take a grad or an apprentice? For the just-past-apprentice level that's a simple decision, you'll get far more out of an apprentice easily. For someone beyond that level with a few years experience, where I might need someone who can manage people, has a grasp of project management, can be trusted to be put in front of a customer? It gets trickier, and at that point a degree is a marker that you have a certain level of ability with the more abstract stuff, can write coherently, can argue a point of view respectfully, etc., etc. It's a selling point.

(I'm not saying apprentice-route people can't do that. Just that having the degree supports the fact that you can.)

Look at the career path you would like to follow, then get on the major job sites and see what the requirements are for jobs roughly 10 years beyond what you are aiming for initially. If they're looking for degrees, that's a big hint.

 

[normspanners]

"worked your way up"

I totally agree but it is a sad state of affairs though, that very talented 'grass root' people are being left behind because they havnt got a piece of paper that says they are clever maybe clever is the wrong word----- Talented might be better . Is this one reason why Britain is being left behind ?
my son has not got degrees but has progresed in a big multi, just by sticking with the job, and as the high fliers have moved on, he has been asked 'can you do their job?' as in the words of bob the builder 'yes he can'. He then has proved his worth also has been retained several times when redundancy has loomed.
He is now well thought of and his opinion is sought, AFAIK.

 

[Rocketman]

Also, I want to be actually making stuff, not sitting at a computer, telling a CNC machine what to do or sitting in an office, telling others what to do. I couldn't care less that they may be better paying, they sound boring. I think the uni degree would get me a job doing either of these.

I want to work in a small business, making one offs, not a bigger business, making hundreds of the same part, day in, day out.

What do you think would be best for me?

Seems to me from your interests tool making or precision mechanical engineer would be the kind of thing you are interested in.

I think you are in a bit of a dream world thinking of not using CNC's

CNC, CAD/CAM is essential in the modern world.

You get your hand plenty dirty and have to do much manual work but it has become essential to be able to program a machine particularly for one offs. CNC, CAD/CAM is far from only any use in production manufacture in fact it couldn't be further from the truth.

A good tool maker should be able to do the cutter paths, set the machine up, go out on the floor then and get on with the turning, any manual mill stuff and EDM. Not forgetting polishing, shutting out tools, fitting moving parts. Basically the job is endless but if you say to a potential employer I'm not interested in the CNC they will say there is the door.

 

[shtu]

It is sad norm. Where I work I'm currently arguing strongly that we need our staff to retain hands-on skills and not just write documents all day, as the only way you REALLY know how something works is to have actually done it yourself, not just written about the theory of it.

Sadly, the can't-do element are big fans of not having to prove themselves, and I'm outnumbered.

 

[daleyd]

It is sad norm. Where I work I'm currently arguing strongly that we need our staff to retain hands-on skills and not just write documents all day, as the only way you REALLY know how something works is to have actually done it yourself, not just written about the theory of it.

Sadly, the can't-do element are big fans of not having to prove themselves, and I'm outnumbered.

I've come across jobs asking for degrees, but more generally (in engineering at least) I see jobs advertised as Degree or HNC/NVQ + relevant experience. (I appreciate that may not be true for all industries, but engineering at least seems to have retained a sense of worth of vocational training)

A degree is a foot in the door, and you are of course correct in that it may help getting you an interview, but from my own point of view I know if I write "Siemens S7" on my CV I'll get a damn sight more interviews than if I write "Degree".

Also, while I agree that you should think in the long term, I think you underestimate the prospects of someone who doesn't have a degree. As Norm says above, those who can get on will generally rise to the top, degree or not. Most of the production supervisor/engineering manager/middle management(or higher) posts in a lot of the factories/plants I go to are filled by ex apprentices, as they have intimate knowledge of how the process/plant works.