Tig Cooler Unit

[addjunkie]

Been a while since I looked in the gubbins a dishwasher, but are they not centrifugal pumps with about a half inch outlet, dont think they would be suitable, but if you have one, buy a torch plumb it in and try it.

All the comercial cooler pumps are positive displacment of one form or another.

I had the noise discussion with Richard recently regarding cooler pumps, he thought based on experience the Procon was quietest.

 

[Hood]

You need a pump that is capable of fairly high pressure as it has to push the water 8m through small bore tubing or possibly even 16m if an 8m torch.
I initially tried with a central heating pump and it was no use even though it was supposedly capable of producing 10bar pressure. I next tried with one of the small Chinese diaphragm pumps and it did the job but the pressure was too high so I had to put in a diverter valve, the problem was it got extremely hot in prolonged use. In the end I settled for a Procon pump on the wall bracket cooler and I had a gear pump similar to the Ceme for the portable cooler. This is the gear type that is often used.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-pu...var=600339023722&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

[Hopefuldave]

"High pressure" and positive displacement and scratching head to the bone made me think of the 12v power steering pumps that are fitted to a lot of small cars - the pressure and flow are high enough for a small hydraulic ram, none are fused at more than 30A, just not sure how the innards would cope with coolant instead of hydraulic fluid - but at £15 a pop on EvilBay...

I'll keep watching the World's Best Skip though, never know what'll appear

Dave H. (the other one)

 

[Carl Wilson]

I don't think a car power steering pump is a goer, I doubt it would live for long pumping water/glycol or variations thereof.

Regarding the centrifugal pump in a dishwasher, it may well have a larger bore but reduced down this will increase the pressure significantly. There is no reason why a centrifugal pump should not have enough head to push sufficient quantities of water through the distances you describe. Looking at diagrams of those CEME pumps some of them are not positive displacement either. A gear pump produces pressure pulsations by it's very nature and this is something that can contribute to noise.

 

[Richard.]

You’ve got to understand if the pump is not up to the job the consequences are expensive. Experimenting with various pumps because they are cheap and appear to show promise on paper is a gamble with an expensive water cooled torch. There are proven, tried and tested pumps out there designed for the job. They may not be cheap but it’s a dam Sight cheaper than replacing £100 worth of water cooled torch in 3 months because the pump packs up and then buying another pump and another torch. Get a proper pump designed with welding in mind.

 

[Richard.]

CEME pumps some of them are not positive displacement either. A gear pump produces pressure pulsations by it's very nature and this is something that can contribute to noise.

They all make noise.
The ceme gear pumps and motors are excellent pumps. They whine abit but it’s not particularly annoying.
If you want a very quiet pump your really only choice is procon.

 

[Richard.]

Before you deleted your post Carl the mtp 600 works in much the same way as a powered water wheel. The geared fly wheel pushes water out but they don’t draw through air. You need to get the system completely flooded or feed it a gravity fed head of water. They produce excellent pressure once the system is flooded. The noise levels are not too bad with them. The wheel isn’t in contact with anything but the driven shaft and the fluid. The motor is silent so you simply get a constant whining when it’s running. They don’t pulse or vibrate.

 

[Carl Wilson]

Thank you. I understand perfectly the consequences of not selecting the correct pump. I'm not trying to tread on anyone's toes here or encroach into people's individual area of expertise.

When I design something I generally go back to first principles and see what is required, and then what is actually available that can meet the criteria. I also look at what has been done before. In between those two areas lies the solution, generally. Cost also plays a part, obviously, but I would never sacrifice safety or functionality for it. I think it is important to look at things that others might have missed. The dishwasher pump is a decent example of that. It should be able to do the job based on the parameters it would have to fulfill. there is no reason why it should not last for years doing so.

Thanks for the advice regarding the Procon pump.

 

[Carl Wilson]

Sorry about deleting the post. I was actually trying to delete the picture but I deleted the whole thing. It is a peripheral impeller type of thing. Certainly not positive displacement as I would understand it. It's a coffee machine pump.

 

[Richard.]

Sorry about deleting the post. I was actually trying to delete the picture but I deleted the whole thing.

What makes you think a dishwasher pump is ideal.
I’m no expert on them so genuine question.
It’s my understanding these pumps put out big flow rates at low to medium pressure levels

You need 50-60psi at the pump out going
You also want around 1-2lpm of flow going back into the tank. Too much and you’ll burst a hose, too little and you’ll cook your torch power cable.

 

[Richard.]

If your not set on buying a proper pump and want to cobble something up on the cheap then a pump that would be worth looking at would be a minimum 3.5bar shower pump or a caravan/camper pump boasting similar stats.
Remember though there is more to it than what the stats read. Water coolers run continuously pumping all day with what can be quite high temperature water. So it needs to be a reliable heavy duty pump.
The reason procons are so popular is because if you keep them wet they will last you a life time.
They are also fully adjustable so you can set the perfect flow and pressure rates to suit your run lengths and hose bore.

 

[hotponyshoes]

If the noise is an issue you can (again providing you have a pump that will cope) move the cooler away from the welding area and fit some hose extensions.

Or, if you are making it yourself you could fit a fan speed controller based on the water temp.

On light use the fans won't even start to run if you fit a decent size tank.
On heavy use the fans are going to be drowned out by the noise of the welder, grinder, etc.

I have run plenty of procons pumping 100psi+ water over 40m+ for hours on end with no problems. (although that's 2-3degC water not hot).

 

[Hopefuldave]

I don't think a car power steering pump is a goer, I doubt it would live for long pumping water/glycol or variations thereof.

Regarding the centrifugal pump in a dishwasher, it may well have a larger bore but reduced down this will increase the pressure significantly. There is no reason why a centrifugal pump should not have enough head to push sufficient quantities of water through the distances you describe. Looking at diagrams of those CEME pumps some of them are not positive displacement either. A gear pump produces pressure pulsations by it's very nature and this is something that can contribute to noise.

Centrifugal pumps have a big disadvantage, at low flow rates they can stall and just spin what's in the impeller - that reduces the load on the motor and it can over-rev to its no-load peak, not a problem with induction motors but grenade time for brush motors (don't ask...).
My thinking is that a positive-displacement pump is needed: vane, gear, piston or diaphragm, with a fair bit of torque to drive it?

Dave H. (the other one) (who's at the bottom of the learning curve)

 

[Richard.]

If the noise is an issue you can (again providing you have a pump that will cope) move the cooler away from the welding area and fit some hose extensions.

Or, if you are making it yourself you could fit a fan speed controller based on the water temp.

On light use the fans won't even start to run if you fit a decent size tank.
On heavy use the fans are going to be drowned out by the noise of the welder, grinder, etc.

I have run plenty of procons pumping 100psi+ water over 40m+ for hours on end with no problems. (although that's 2-3degC water not hot).

The fans biggest job from my experience is not to exchange heat from the rad although that’s important but it’s there to shift warm air out of the box primarily from the motor casing. If your using a pump that is driven by a motor you will notice within 5 minutes of running time the water temp goes up because that motor generates a lot of heat which if it’s not shifted out will quickly build up inside. Good powerful fans are essential to keep that air being pushed out.

 

[Hood]

With the two I have the fan is the biggest source of noise. I at first tried the Procon motor without a fan but after a short while the thermal switch kicked in and the motor stopped so I had to fit a fan. I don't remember the exact temp of the motor but it wasn't that hot or rather I should say it wasn't as hot as I expected it would be where a thermal switch kicked in.

One of the silent fans from Corsair may be a good choice as their blades are designed to provide plenty air flow at low revs and thus low noise, I use them in my computer setup and they are absolutely silent and the water pumps (for the water cooling ) are the noisiest part.

 

[Carl Wilson]

If I was to build one then it would not be running for 12 hours a day solid welding time. I'm not a fabricator or anything like that, I just like the idea of a more compact torch (which means water cooled) and of designing and making my own cooler. My inspiration for wanting a water cooled torch comes from Doubleboost's recent Night Cap in which he welded a car engine sump using his water cooled torch.

I'm not saying that a dishwasher pump - and it doesn't have to be a dishwasher pump, it could be any centrifugal pump - is ideal for the job per se, I'm just saying it would work.

It is right to say that the pump I have in mind is generally thought of as high flow but low to medium pressure. It depends what you mean by low to medium. If you drive that flow through a small bore and you have the input power to do so you will easily generate the pressure you require. I've seen centrifugal jetting pumps strip paint, corrosion and 20 years of marine growth off subsea structures.

I also appreciate that the pump needs to be reliable. A pump like the one I describe is likely to be no less reliable in the application I have in mind for it at the duty cycles I would use it for than a pump that is made for a coffee machine.

As I said earlier, I'm not trying to tread on anyone's toes or encroach on anyone's area of expertise. I bow to experience in these matters. I'm just approaching this as an engineering exercise. A problem to solve that has various criteria that need to be met. I'm using the beginners mind - I have no preconceived ideas and therefore I'm open to different approaches. Hence the question about the dishwasher pump. It may prove to be of no use. At the end of the day the most important thing is that the question gets asked.

 

[Richard.]

Well you seem pretty confident so all you can do is build it and feedback

 

[bletchmonster]

All depends on the torch. I have 8 meter ck that needs a good 60 psi to get one litre a minute though it.

 

[Richard.]

Sorry about deleting the post. I was actually trying to delete the picture but I deleted the whole thing. It is a peripheral impeller type of thing. Certainly not positive displacement as I would understand it. It's a coffee machine pump.

Ceme mtp is not a coffee machine pump Carl it’s a welding cooler pump mate.
Ceme built these with the et3009 and they are specifically designed for welding coolers. They might work as a coffee machine pump that’s not what they are.
Procon pumps make coffee machine pumps. They make pump heads for various applications. Beverage industry is one and believe it or not the series 1 procon head was actually made for welding coolers.

 

[Jlg]

@Richard. do you not have a procon pump you could sell the op