Sandringham 6x6

[sako243]

@m_c you're right it's something stupid - me.

Perusing old photos in the evening whilst I was writing a response to you and @Smallfry I've spotted what's wrong. I'll have to strip down the front a bit to confirm which should give a clue.

Essentially I used the wrong timing mark so the cam is very slightly out. What?! How can I use the wrong timing mark you say, well numpty here speed read the manual on timing and then defaulted to using the crank key way (like most 4 pot engines not a V8) not the small timing dot on the gear to line things up.

I can't make out the timing dot on the crank in this zoomed in photo but you can clearly see it on the cam and it's inline with the key way. The key way should be pointing inline with #1 at TDC not the middle of the valley so it's out by roughly half the V angle by the looks of it.

 

[Smallfry]

@m_c you're right it's something stupid - me.

Perusing old photos in the evening whilst I was writing a response to you and @Smallfry I've spotted what's wrong. I'll have to strip down the front a bit to confirm which should give a clue.

Essentially I used the wrong timing mark so the cam is very slightly out. What?! How can I use the wrong timing mark you say, well numpty here speed read the manual on timing and then defaulted to using the crank key way (like most 4 pot engines not a V8) not the small timing dot on the gear to line things up.

I can't make out the timing dot on the crank in this zoomed in photo but you can clearly see it on the cam and it's inline with the key way. The key way should be pointing inline with #1 at TDC not the middle of the valley so it's out by roughly half the V angle by the looks of it.
View attachment 527057

Been there, done that. Not with a GEMS or THOR engine though.

Most people who have delved into camshafts and chains on the RV8 have though. Too much assumption with something that looks obvious and correct, but isnt.

 

[sako243]

Oh I read the manual knew I had to line up the dots. Just didn't

 

[sako243]

Suspicion confirmed





That mark wasn't that obvious when I assembled it but now I know I can see it.

I can see what @Gazzar was on about with the sump. Bloody annoying. Thought I'd get away with draining water and then taking the timing cover off, except there's two studs on the timing cover so the sump has to come off.

Drained the spanking new oil out into a clean bucket once I made the realisation, unfortunately a tiny bit of water made it into the oil as I'd slacked the timing cover bolts first before realising the oil needed draining and I wasn't quick enough to put the sump plug back in.

Only a tiny bit mind so may just ignore it since it'll be drained after 20 minutes.

 

[sako243]

Now correctly timed...



And back together



Slightly worryingly it turns over more freely now than before so fingers crossed the hydraulic lifters have saved things (there's been no bad noises) but next step is to pull the rockers to check the valves and shove a bore scope down each spark plug hole to see if I can see anything untoward.

 

[Tinbasherdan]

Oh I read the manual knew I had to line up the dots. Just didn't

If it makes you feel better, I did the exact same on a meteor v12, which then filled the exhaust with fuel and exploded it while I was about 3ft away. Deaf in my right ear ever since

 

[harveyp6]

I did the same thing with an "O" series. I didn't have a manual, so I guessed , and of course , guessed wrong.......

 

[minimutly]

Now correctly timed...



And back together



Slightly worryingly it turns over more freely now than before so fingers crossed the hydraulic lifters have saved things (there's been no bad noises) but next step is to pull the rockers to check the valves and shove a bore scope down each spark plug hole to see if I can see anything untoward.

Bore scope pointless. You need a cylinder leakage tester, or compression tester. Its unlikely you've had a clash, how many teeth/degrees out were you? Those valves are a long way in the head.

 

[sako243]

If it makes you feel better, I did the exact same on a meteor v12, which then filled the exhaust with fuel and exploded it while I was about 3ft away. Deaf in my right ear ever since

It does, thank you

 

[minimutly]

I did the same thing with an "O" series. I didn't have a manual, so I guessed , and of course , guessed wrong.......

@tdc, either cyl 1 or 4 (on a 4 cyl) "on the rock" it's an easy check. For a V8 get it to no1 tdc, valves must be "on the rock"

 

[harveyp6]

@tdc, either cyl 1 or 4 (on a 4 cyl) "on the rock" it's an easy check. For a V8 get it to no1 tdc, valves must be "on the rock"

IIRC the crank mark should be at the top, so I lined up the cam gear at the bottom so the marks lined up, but it should be at the side, parallel to the head face.
I think.
it was about 40 years ago.

 

[sako243]

Those valves are a long way in the head.

I think your definition of long way into the head and mine differ...

It is, I'm fairly sure (I've already admitted to my incompetence), an interfence engine after all.

I don't trust the AI summary but without going to the workshop (currently having lunch) the valve lift is circa 9mm on a standard cam which is believable which would put those valves right into the piston if things went bad.

Anyway - it's been caught and engine turned over reasonably freely even before this but not as smoothly as it does now but the plugs are definitely out now. With regards to distance out I'm guessing close to 45° as keyway should be pointing at #1 in a 90° V engine.

 

[harveyp6]

The 3.5 engines definitely bend the valves if the camchain jumps.

 

[minimutly]

I think your definition of long way into the head and mine differ...
View attachment 527091
It is, I'm fairly sure (I've already admitted to my incompetence), an interfence engine after all.

I don't trust the AI summary but without going to the workshop (currently having lunch) the valve lift is circa 9mm on a standard cam which is believable which would put those valves right into the piston if things went bad.

Anyway - it's been caught and engine turned over reasonably freely even before this but not as smoothly as it does now but the plugs are definitely out now. With regards to distance out I'm guessing close to 45° as keyway should be pointing at #1 in a 90° V engine.

Hmm, they do seem closer than my memory told me - are there cutouts in the pistons? If so how deep? 45deg on the crank is half that on the cam, still quite a bit if they were close before. If you want to borrow my leakage tester you're welcome to it, only way to be sure..

 

[dobbslc]

Fingers crossed

 

[sako243]

Pistons have a slight dish to them, I have a compression tester but it also works best cranking over on the starter so not ideal on a freshly built engine.

I'll whip the rockers off and then check the pushrods on my workbench (it is a surface table after all). I would expect / hope they're more likely to bend given their length than the valves.

In the meantime we've had the fun of an unidentified floating object. (more on that later) which may have been identified but not confirmed yet .

 

[sako243]

Copy and paste from LR4x4 but alluding to the UFO above.

Yup and as Pete aludes to there was another... On going to reinstall the sump one found an odd shaped thingy-ma-bob...



A few beers are owed to @Gazzar as he had a look at his 4.6 in pieces and we had a candidate where to check and voila (back of timing cover / water pump).



That is the correct length bolt that should be in there so possibly a bit of dirt or a previously installed long bolt. Who knows.

Thankfully some discussions will be had as we know where an unwanted timing cover is. There's also the possibility of using the one off the Thor engine but that means I'd have to try and protect the rest of it it until I find somewhere better to store it.