Pagid brake pads

[arther dailey]

It's not just copper grease, and not just caliper seals.
I've seen various greases that are sold as 'rubber safe' for brake use (most prominent one being the Pagid one!), also swell caliper slide boots.
And then there's those who use release oil on the caliper boots of parking brake calipers so the boot doesn't stick when winding back, which also swells the boot.

Only thing that I'll use on slides, is the white/clear silicon grease supplied with slide kits, and if needed, some silicon or teflon spray on caliper boots

If used in slide pins, copper grease and lithium based greases will solidify and seize the slide after a year or so.
They also go tacky, so if you have a pin with a rubber dampening sleeve on it they're even more prone to binding, and chances are you'll rip the sleeve when you do have to next remove the pin.

The silicon based greases that are supplied with slide pin kits, don't cause any of those issues.

found that with copper slip, but not with lithium so far ,red rubber grease is also good, no perishing issues.

 

[arther dailey]

So all in all a lot of aftermarket brake pads are not up to scratch seems to be general concensus.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Out of all the aftermarket pads I used over the last 40 years the only ones that have failed on me are Pagid, XK8 rears failed, the friction material fell off the metal backing.

 

[keithski122]

If used in slide pins, copper grease and lithium based greases will solidify and seize the slide after a year or so.
They also go tacky, so if you have a pin with a rubber dampening sleeve on it they're even more prone to binding, and chances are you'll rip the sleeve when you do have to next remove the pin.

The silicon based greases that are supplied with slide pin kits, don't cause any of those issues.

35 years in the motortrade so I've changed one or two brake pads in my time, ten years at one garage so lots of repeat customers and not known of any issues myself of using a small amount of copper slip even though I hate the stuff myself as it seems to get everywhere. Changing my own pads and discs at the weekend and I won't be worrying about using a small amount of copperslip on the pad edges and backs although I think I might have some rubber grease if so I'll possibly use that on the rubber sleeves.

 

[m_c]

35 years in the motortrade so I've changed one or two brake pads in my time, ten years at one garage so lots of repeat customers and not known of any issues myself of using a small amount of copper slip even though I hate the stuff myself as it seems to get everywhere. Changing my own pads and discs at the weekend and I won't be worrying about using a small amount of copperslip on the pad edges and backs although I think I might have some rubber grease if so I'll possibly use that on the rubber sleeves.

So you're one of those old school techs who's always done it the way you were probably told as an apprentice, without actually learning how jobs should be done with modern materials?

I've seen plenty handbrake calipers where the boot has swollen enough to allow water/dirt ingress from previous techs who had previously soaked them with release oil.
Only place I'll put some copper or high temperature grease, is on the back of shims, to try and delay how quickly the carrier rusts/swells and starts to cause the pad to bind.
Most decent modern brake pads have an anti-squeal coating, so copper grease serves no purpose on the back of pads. And if the pad has a self-adhesive backing, it most definitely should not be greased.
As for contact points, any grease applied there will get washed out fairly quickly.

 

[premmington]

So you're one of those old school techs who's always done it the way you were probably told as an apprentice, without actually learning how jobs should be done with modern materials?

I've seen plenty handbrake calipers where the boot has swollen enough to allow water/dirt ingress from previous techs who had previously soaked them with release oil.
Only place I'll put some copper or high temperature grease, is on the back of shims, to try and delay how quickly the carrier rusts/swells and starts to cause the pad to bind.
Most decent modern brake pads have an anti-squeal coating, so copper grease serves no purpose on the back of pads. And if the pad has a self-adhesive backing, it most definitely should not be greased.
As for contact points, any grease applied there will get washed out fairly quickly.

There is a saying "go in dry - if it is tight - go with a tool with the makers name on it".


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And to the cryptically challenged - no grease and only use OE genuine parts.

 

[m_c]

If I sounded a bit harsh in that last post, it's because I'm currently surrounded by a bunch of techs, who's laziness, incompetence, and being completely unwilling to learn new skills, is somewhat frustrating.

I asked one tech why he was using the rubbish Pagid grease on Sprinter slides, when there is also the correct silicon grease on the shelf.
"I prefer using this grease as it's stickier"
Most Sprinters need new slide kits every couple of years due to the slide boots swelling, yet he failed to see the correlation.

 

[dobbslc]

Why are you using Pagid pads then?

 

[Blobber]

I've always used copper slip only as that's what everyone always used but I'm going to try some of this new fangled stuff!
I put some apec pads in little wheezy astra today so we'll see how they do, probably crash and burn now

 

[Ubique]

Why do you think they need anything on them? only the slide pins, where fitted, have lubrication 'from new' - everything else has moved on and has bouncy, slippy or sticky stuff developed and pre-applied to the replaceable braking components if required.

 

[dobbslc]

I've always used copper slip only as that's what everyone always used but I'm going to try some of this new fangled stuff!
I put some apec pads in little wheezy astra today so we'll see how they do, probably crash and burn now View attachment 484855

I've used these before and they worked well, better than EBC green stuff on a track day at Donnington.

 

[bricol]

So all in all a lot of aftermarket brake pads are not up to scratch seems to be general concensus.

Theoretically, they should all comply with minimum requirements under European/UK law.
But possibly buying the cheapest ones out there from an unknown source might not be the best idea. I use my local factors that's been around a long time and supplies all the local garages (I see his van delivering to all of them, plus I've taken stuff for him to my local ones on occasion) - I figure if he was selling crap that caused them to lose money, he wouldn't still be in business. So I have had some stuff from him that I've never heard of - but so far, they seem to work, and not fall apart. Might not survive a Silverstone track day, but then I don't do any

 

[JOEPRO]

Why do you think they need anything on them? only the slide pins, where fitted, have lubrication 'from new' - everything else has moved on and has bouncy, slippy or sticky stuff developed and pre-applied to the replaceable braking components if required.

I've never seen new brake pads come with anything pre applied. Sometimes a sticky pad for the piston side but that's about it.

The contact points of the pad VS caliper should have a small amount of brake grease applied. Lube between pistons and back of pad also.

 

[Ubique]

I've never seen new brake pads come with anything pre applied. Sometimes a sticky pad for the piston side but that's about it.

The contact points of the pad VS caliper should have a small amount of brake grease applied. Lube between pistons and back of pad also.

And that was my point, they don't come fitted out of the factory with anything but dry mounting shims and (sometimes) sticky pads and / or dense insulating pads, so why do people 'know better' and start adding grease etc., loaded or not. The only parts that are greased are the caliper slide pins and that is a specified grease, not 'whatever grandad used'.
Show me any manufacturers workshop manual where it states 'The contact points of the pad VS caliper should have a small amount of brake grease applied. Lube between pistons and back of pad' and I'll buy the lube for you myself.
In my experience, the grease is applied rather than spending time cleaning the contact points of old brake dust & corrosion - I've seen dealer tech's do it, so it's not just 'forum Phil' or 'kerbside motors' that are the guilty b'stards.

Edit: what exactly is this nebulous 'brake grease'? i've typed it into partslink etc. and nothing comes up...

 

[JOEPRO]

And that was my point, they don't come fitted out of the factory with anything but dry mounting shims and (sometimes) sticky pads and / or dense insulating pads, so why do people 'know better' and start adding grease etc., loaded or not. The only parts that are greased are the caliper slide pins and that is a specified grease, not 'whatever grandad used'.
Show me any manufacturers workshop manual where it states 'The contact points of the pad VS caliper should have a small amount of brake grease applied. Lube between pistons and back of pad' and I'll buy the lube for you myself.
In my experience, the grease is applied rather than spending time cleaning the contact points of old brake dust & corrosion - I've seen dealer tech's do it, so it's not just 'forum Phil' or 'kerbside motors' that are the guilty b'stards.

Our opinions differ.

I restore and service my own cars. I see the benefits of lubing contact points, been doing it for a long time and will continue to do it.

Its all good, not arguing with you just saying this is how I do it and in my opinion it works great and can't hurt anything.

The only issues with brakes I have encountered are from other mechanics having fitted pads bone dry and having to hammer and punch the pads out of for caliper.

 

[premmington]

Our opinions differ.

I restore and service my own cars. I see the benefits of lubing contact points, been doing it for a long time and will continue to do it.

Its all good, not arguing with you just saying this is how I do it and in my opinion it works great and can't hurt anything.

The only issues with brakes I have encountered are from other mechanics having fitted pads bone dry and having to hammer and punch the pads out of for caliper.

@Ubique is correct - nothing comes out of the factory with greased braking contact points or pads slarred on the rear with copperslip. Slides come with a bit if silicon based grease on them.

Lots of brakes have stainless type shims on the hangers now.

Then the vehicles get old and the corrosion starts - then you are dressing replacement pads up on a bench grinder - filling up corroded caliper hangers to get pads to fit. And yes people get the tin of copperslip out with a brush in it - I got one too.

Worse than copperslip - people drown the inside of caliper piston boots with WD40 to free pistons off with - then the boots soften and expand and fall apart.

I don't lube wheel fixings up either - but people do...

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Your best friend is a rotary wire brush - on a high speed older type painters air sander and just clean everything up...

 

[keithski122]

The reason I copperslip is because I have come across occasions where the pads have been squeaking when applied due to no lubrication of the contact points, also a small amount applied to de-rusted areas between the stainless slider plates and the caliper bracket prevents or slows down rust reoccurring. Manufacturers don't always know best and also are after quick and cheap builds.
The old fords with the taper seat spark plugs never had them lubricated from the factory, I remember having to use an air impact to remove seized plugs, always copperslipped those when replacing.

 

[Ubique]

Our opinions differ.

I restore and service my own cars. I see the benefits of lubing contact points, been doing it for a long time and will continue to do it.

Its all good, not arguing with you just saying this is how I do it and in my opinion it works great and can't hurt anything.

The only issues with brakes I have encountered are from other mechanics having fitted pads bone dry and having to hammer and punch the pads out of for caliper.

The difference is, mine is not an opinion, it's hard fact from vehicle manufacturers whose products I have been trained to, and paid to work on - including Mercedes-Benz, many to Master Tech, some to Regional tech level.
Workshop instructions contain the details, procedures, tools and measurements required to perform a task correctly. There is no 'I'll do it the way I think best', the devil is in the detail, if it's not done to the work instructions, it's not done correctly. Fact.

 

[Ubique]

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Your best friend is a rotary wire brush - on a high speed older type painters air sander and just clean everything up...

Ooooh! you'll like mine - I'll take a photo on Monday....

 

[JOEPRO]

Not just me