Newbie advice please - welder needed for single job

[dobbslc]

Just my 2 pennys worth
You doing this with the engine cold? Will it start? could try taking them out when its hot,no?

Post 22 ^^^

 

[Jembo28]

Very valid contribution thanks (I think someone else suggested this too). I think it was cold when I tried before, so when I have my new Milwaukee grips I'll get the engine hot before I try again.

 

[dobbslc]

Forgot the Milwaukee grips and get yourself a Milwaukee impact driver

 

[Shedendman]

Post 22 ^^^

no,i didnt pay attention,sir

 

[dave h 2]

Post 22 ^^^

In addition to Shedendmans 'take two' of run the engine first also try tightening the bolts before attempting loosening them. M6 screws and a plastic lid ought to mean low torque. Likewise if they go 1/4 turn or so then stop, work it back and forth gently. If the bolt/s goes springy don't go any harder you reached the yield point.

 

[Jembo28]

Just a thought - what about one of those Sakertool portable welders. Or is it sacrilegious to even mention such a thing here... Would that produce less heat (ie with the plastic cover) and possibly be easier for a novice like me plus get the job done?

 

[waddycall]

Do you need the car to get to work? If so I’d leave it to someone else. Sort of thing that can rapidly spiral out of control.

 

[Jembo28]

Do you need the car to get to work? If so I’d leave it to someone else. Sort of thing that can rapidly spiral out of control.

No, I work from home, so leaving it up on stands whilst the job is done is fine.

 

[George A2Y]

Thanks George - I'm still a little anxious about leaving myself with 11 seized studs to remove without heads for purchase. And I have 11 new specific bolts ready to go.

The studs with heads would still be there, plus a small section of stud and plastic, the depth of the plastic. There would be a good bit more to grip than you have at the moment.

Thanks George - I'm still a little anxious about leaving myself with 11 seized studs to remove without heads for purchase. And I have 11 new specific bolts ready to go.

 

[Jembo28]

The studs with heads would still be there, plus a small section of stud and plastic, the depth of the plastic. There would be a good bit more to grip than you have at the moment.

I see what you mean - the length of the stud that is currently inside the depth of the plastic cover. But there wouldn't be any "heads" left surely or the cover wouldn't come off?

 

[hotponyshoes]

Just a thought - what about one of those Sakertool portable welders. Or is it sacrilegious to even mention such a thing here... Would that produce less heat (ie with the plastic cover) and possibly be easier for a novice like me plus get the job done?

It doesn't matter what type of welding machine it is. It will either have enough power to weld the nut on, or it won't.
I'm guessing it's probably a 6mm bolt so pretty much any welder will do.
Lidl probably sell a welder with a budget mask and enough wire/rods to do the job from a household plug. They are cheap as chips and if you stick it on ebay with postage afterwards you'll get back what you paid anyway.

If you want to weld, see what the biggest size socket is you can fit over the existing bolt heads. Get some plain steel nuts to suit.
Drill out the center of the nut with a countersink bit so you have a Vee shaped hole to fill with weld.
Clean the top of the bolts with a wire brush in a drill/dremel/something.
Hold the nut on top with a pair of pliers and weld the nut on.
By the time you have done all of them the first should be cold enough to try undoing.

Welding nuts on helps in 2 ways,
First, it gives you something to turn (as you have already mutilated the existing hex)
Second, some of the heat from the welding will conduct down the shank of the bolt and into the thread.
If you get enough heat into the bolt it will expand. That expansion crushes the corrosion around the bolt. In your case it will crush it into the surrounding aluminium head as that is softer than the steel bolt.

Then (in theory) when the bolt cools back to normal size the bolt/corrosion/head bond should break free allowing you to extract the bolt.
In practice, that probably won't happen.
Firstly, you can only get to the head of the bolt to heat it so by the time the heat has conducted all the way down to the end of the thread the plastic cover will have melted.
2nd, the aluminium is going to be tightly bonded to the bolt and aluminium is a very good conductor of heat so will be drawing the heat out of the bolt.
3rd, if you manage (somehow) to get the thread of the bolt upto 400⁰c it's only going to expand by 0.015 of a mm.
That's not enough to crush 20 years worth of corrosion.

Another downside with welding a nut on is you'll exceed the heat treat tempreture in the welding area. If (and they might not be) they are high tensile bolts you've just lost the strength meaning they will probably snap at the bottom of the weld.
Not the end of the world but I'd just remove the heads and lift the rocker cover off if you want to save it.
Plus you then have the original bolt shank at full original strength, and then you have more chance of them getting out via easier methods.

Welding a nut on would not be high on my list of choices.
I'd start with a set of screw extractors and grind one of those down until it was a perfect fit into whatever is left of the hex drive. If they won't pull it out they'll either shear the head off or, they'll spin which will leave you a nice round hole to send a drill bit into.

Alternatively, study some pictures of a removed rocker cover.
Does it really matter if you melt it a bit?
If it's the usual type (plastic with a metal tube bonded in place) is there enough meat around the tube to drill a new hole and insert a bigger one if it gets ********?
Is there enough meat over the top of the holes to grind a flat to cover any metled areas with a big washer?
Could you plate over the top of it?
And so on..

Also, don't forget, they might not actually be corroded in. Unless you have had the car from new the there is the very real possibility that the previous owner had a rockercover weep and rather than replacing the gasket just cranked all the bolts up as tight as they would go..
This could mean the female thread is deformed and damaged and when you finally manage to get the bolt out it brings all of the female thread with it leaving you learning about the world of pain that is helicoils...

 

[Jembo28]

It doesn't matter what type of welding machine it is. It will either have enough power to weld the nut on, or it won't.
I'm guessing it's probably a 6mm bolt so pretty much any welder will do.
Lidl probably sell a welder with a budget mask and enough wire/rods to do the job from a household plug. They are cheap as chips and if you stick it on ebay with postage afterwards you'll get back what you paid anyway.

If you want to weld, see what the biggest size socket is you can fit over the existing bolt heads. Get some plain steel nuts to suit.
Drill out the center of the nut with a countersink bit so you have a Vee shaped hole to fill with weld.
Clean the top of the bolts with a wire brush in a drill/dremel/something.
Hold the nut on top with a pair of pliers and weld the nut on.
By the time you have done all of them the first should be cold enough to try undoing.

Welding nuts on helps in 2 ways,
First, it gives you something to turn (as you have already mutilated the existing hex)
Second, some of the heat from the welding will conduct down the shank of the bolt and into the thread.
If you get enough heat into the bolt it will expand. That expansion crushes the corrosion around the bolt. In your case it will crush it into the surrounding aluminium head as that is softer than the steel bolt.

Then (in theory) when the bolt cools back to normal size the bolt/corrosion/head bond should break free allowing you to extract the bolt.
In practice, that probably won't happen.
Firstly, you can only get to the head of the bolt to heat it so by the time the heat has conducted all the way down to the end of the thread the plastic cover will have melted.
2nd, the aluminium is going to be tightly bonded to the bolt and aluminium is a very good conductor of heat so will be drawing the heat out of the bolt.
3rd, if you manage (somehow) to get the thread of the bolt upto 400⁰c it's only going to expand by 0.015 of a mm.
That's not enough to crush 20 years worth of corrosion.

Another downside with welding a nut on is you'll exceed the heat treat tempreture in the welding area. If (and they might not be) they are high tensile bolts you've just lost the strength meaning they will probably snap at the bottom of the weld.
Not the end of the world but I'd just remove the heads and lift the rocker cover off if you want to save it.
Plus you then have the original bolt shank at full original strength, and then you have more chance of them getting out via easier methods.

Welding a nut on would not be high on my list of choices.
I'd start with a set of screw extractors and grind one of those down until it was a perfect fit into whatever is left of the hex drive. If they won't pull it out they'll either shear the head off or, they'll spin which will leave you a nice round hole to send a drill bit into.

Alternatively, study some pictures of a removed rocker cover.
Does it really matter if you melt it a bit?
If it's the usual type (plastic with a metal tube bonded in place) is there enough meat around the tube to drill a new hole and insert a bigger one if it gets ********?
Is there enough meat over the top of the holes to grind a flat to cover any metled areas with a big washer?
Could you plate over the top of it?
And so on..

Also, don't forget, they might not actually be corroded in. Unless you have had the car from new the there is the very real possibility that the previous owner had a rockercover weep and rather than replacing the gasket just cranked all the bolts up as tight as they would go..
This could mean the female thread is deformed and damaged and when you finally manage to get the bolt out it brings all of the female thread with it leaving you learning about the world of pain that is helicoils...

Thanks for this very detailed reply. The detail convinces me that you know what you're talking about enough that I should listen and stop - getting in over my head here!!! I think I'll bite the bullet and get someone experienced in seized bolt removal on the case.

In regards, "Does it really matter if the cover melts a bit" - I think on this one I can make a valid point (for once!). The need to get the cover off is to replace the gasket as it's leaking oil - if the cover melts "a bit" then it more than likely won't remain flat (it's possible, however that it already isn't) at the interface with the rest of the engine and so a new gasket will only mask the problem, so possibly I need a new cover anyway!

 

[addjunkie]

Thanks for this very detailed reply. The detail convinces me that you know what you're talking about enough that I should listen and stop - getting in over my head here!!! I think I'll bite the bullet and get someone experienced in seized bolt removal on the case.

In regards, "Does it really matter if the cover melts a bit" - I think on this one I can make a valid point (for once!). The need to get the cover off is to replace the gasket as it's leaking oil - if the cover melts "a bit" then it more than likely won't remain flat (it's possible, however that it already isn't) at the interface with the rest of the engine and so a new gasket will only mask the problem, so possibly I need a new cover anyway!

If paying a proper person, find someone familiar with the brand and model…..they will have done the job before.

Alternatively, being old, how much oil is it leaking……carry spare.

 

[tom2207]

Forgot the Milwaukee grips and get yourself a Milwaukee impact driver

then you will have a load of sheared off studs level with the block ,,, This is the last job in the world I would want to see an impact driver on ,, be better with an induction heater , and sacrifice the plastics

 

[hotponyshoes]

Thanks for this very detailed reply. The detail convinces me that you know what you're talking about enough that I should listen and stop - getting in over my head here!!! I think I'll bite the bullet and get someone experienced in seized bolt removal on the case.

In regards, "Does it really matter if the cover melts a bit" - I think on this one I can make a valid point (for once!). The need to get the cover off is to replace the gasket as it's leaking oil - if the cover melts "a bit" then it more than likely won't remain flat (it's possible, however that it already isn't) at the interface with the rest of the engine and so a new gasket will only mask the problem, so possibly I need a new cover anyway!

If you are not desperate to use the car you can try and remove it yourself.
Then, if the cover gets too badly damaged just order a new one.

Although, at the moment, the car is drivable which means you could take it somewhere for repair. Might not be possible once the cover is off!

Or, see if you can get at least some of the bolts undone.
If you snap half of them the car is probably still drivable and you could give up at that stage and take it somewhere.
If you could get 3 or 4 out ok then you could carry on and ruin the rest as you could temporarily refit it with the few good bolts to take for repair if you can't get the remaining stumps out.

Alternatively, if this is a common/known problem, Take it somewhere who will fit some keyserts and give you a documented receipt and you'll add some value to the car.
Maybe not as much value as the job costs but it will make for an easier sale in the future (or easier for you if you keep the car until the gasket starts leaking again)

 

[steveo3002]

mac tools rbrt sockets look good , i do wonder did these strip because you used budget tools on them , i would have expected to snap a few off if seized and using a decent fitting tool

 

[wyn]

I just had a quick look on the internet and these OEM covers seem to be magnesium or aluminium.
This could affect how you tackle things.

 

[Jembo28]

I just had a quick look on the internet and these OEM covers seem to be magnesium or aluminium.
This could affect how you tackle things.

The OEM ones are plastic, but you can get billet aluminium ones as a direct replacement. Although aluminium seems to be the obvious choice (and not much more in cost) the jury is out as to which is better... that's a whole new rabbit hole to go down!!!

 

[dobbslc]

then you will have a load of sheared off studs level with the block ,,, This is the last job in the world I would want to see an impact driver on ,, be better with an induction heater , and sacrifice the plastics

I did say gently rattle them back and forth not blast in there at full throttle.

 

[tom2207]

Mac do a set of allen key sockets of the internal type that are for taking out damaged allen bolts ,,,, they are expensive as a set , but if they will sell you one on its own it may save a lot of grief Ive used them on turbo mountings and heat exchangers that had no right to be coming out at all ,,, they sort of have a sharp edge and a twist , I normally dont put great faith in stud / bolt removal fandangos , tend to be more style than substance , but these are very very good ,,,, thought it would be rude not to mention them.