- Thread starter Brad93
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agreed in principal. Didn't know what size of installation that was being discussed, figured it was something of a decent size if it needs "dozens of chain drives" etc, didn't sound like a wee bakers on the high street....
daleyd
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In answer to your question any of the drives above would do the job you want. There is more to it then just sticking one of them on each motor though, you could potentially save a lot of dough (see what I did there) of you can get away with a single or a couple of larger drives feeding multiple motors, which also simplifies wiring and controls.
As a minimum you will be needing some panels built and some basic stop/start/estop functions, possibly close to the drives and where the machine is if they are going to be sited remotely- it’s really a job that you should be subbing out to someone that specialises in this, it will probably actually be cheaper in the long run anyway.
As a minimum you will be needing some panels built and some basic stop/start/estop functions, possibly close to the drives and where the machine is if they are going to be sited remotely- it’s really a job that you should be subbing out to someone that specialises in this, it will probably actually be cheaper in the long run anyway.
daleyd
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No / sub out to someone who knows about drives, an automation company.
I’d expect you to reply the same way if I said I was going weld you a load bearing roof beam with my sip mig welder - “get someone in who knows what they are doing”. Wiring a vfd up is child’s play, making sure it’s designed and installed right as part of a system and is safe to go in an industrial place of work is a bit different. If it was for your lathe then no one would bat an eyelid about you sticking one on there and doing as you please.
Crack on if you want, but your leaving yourself open if you do it without proper consideration.
mike os
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In an industrial environment I wouldn't even consider doing or allow anyone unqualified and uninsured to even pick up a Screwdriver for anything more than changing a fuse or simple repair. Your liability is unlimited if it goes tits up
Munkul
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I think Brad know better than any of us internet heros about what liability and risks he's willing to take on and where he isn't.
Some of the attitudes on here are so risk averse it's a wonder they get out of the front door in the morning...
Some of the attitudes on here are so risk averse it's a wonder they get out of the front door in the morning...
daleyd
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I’m not sure it’s risk averse to expect that things are done right for something that’s going to be used by other people (ie not in your own workshop) - not casting aspersions on anyone’s ability but if your having to ask this kind of question in the first place then it’s probably better to get someone else in. I know I probably sound like a stuck record but what’s perfectly fine in your own workshop is a different ball game when it comes to doing it for someone else.
Good luck with whatever is decided though
Good luck with whatever is decided though
Kayos
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I think Brad know better than any of us internet heros about what liability and risks he's willing to take on and where he isn't.
Some of the attitudes on here are so risk averse it's a wonder they get out of the front door in the morning...
Im currently speccing a control panel for a job, I have a budget of £60k
Now I could lash something up and get my mate to wire it, saving £50k and impressing the bean counters, or I could employ a proper company, pay the money and have the job done right, with full backup and support
I wonder what I will end up doing?
@Munkul yes and no, not so much a question of risk really, more a question of practicality. The guys gave advice based on their experience, and know what they're saying being in that environment / profession. The automation of industial machines / kit isn't just two wires in and three wires out, despite what some think from getting a lathe to go round and round. There's all sorts of other difficulties / constraints that need to be applied, safety controls, emergency stops, guards / security for operators etc. More than enough hassle when you know what your doing and the client knows what they need. Major ballache when neither does...
How many clients will pay so you can learn how to do it, who pays for their down time while you figure it out when it takes way longer that you figured? As soon as you do it "professionally" i.e get paid for it, you become legally responsible, that's not a risk, that's a guarantee... If it does all go pear shaped, who's head is on the block.?.. not the baker, he employed someone to do it.
What they're saying is that if you don't know what your doing yourself, it's best left to someone who does. Easiest option, sub it out to them, add your "management" mark up on top, job done.... less hassle, and "risk" all round for you and the owner / operators, etc.
As for the going out the door in the morning "risk attitude" if your referring to my comment about the disclaimer etc for the heating the oil on the seized engine thread, that was said tongue firmly in cheek.. bearing in mind that this is a public forum, and you never know whose reading it. Some will be more than capable of figuring it out safely, some less so... at the end of the day, everyone knows how it all works now, the lawyers seem to run everything sadly...
How many clients will pay so you can learn how to do it, who pays for their down time while you figure it out when it takes way longer that you figured? As soon as you do it "professionally" i.e get paid for it, you become legally responsible, that's not a risk, that's a guarantee... If it does all go pear shaped, who's head is on the block.?.. not the baker, he employed someone to do it.
What they're saying is that if you don't know what your doing yourself, it's best left to someone who does. Easiest option, sub it out to them, add your "management" mark up on top, job done.... less hassle, and "risk" all round for you and the owner / operators, etc.
As for the going out the door in the morning "risk attitude" if your referring to my comment about the disclaimer etc for the heating the oil on the seized engine thread, that was said tongue firmly in cheek.. bearing in mind that this is a public forum, and you never know whose reading it. Some will be more than capable of figuring it out safely, some less so... at the end of the day, everyone knows how it all works now, the lawyers seem to run everything sadly...
Brad93
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If you've not worked in the bakery industry then it's hard to grasp how slim the margins are and how tight fisted the owners can be.
My job is to order two drives, a control pendant and enclosure, and fabricate new mountings for the existing motors/new gearboxes so they can run a V-belt direct drive to the conveyor and to the gear pump.
The wiring is down to their service/maintenance provider, who is my customer.
My job is to order two drives, a control pendant and enclosure, and fabricate new mountings for the existing motors/new gearboxes so they can run a V-belt direct drive to the conveyor and to the gear pump.
The wiring is down to their service/maintenance provider, who is my customer.
daleyd
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Your best bet would be speaking with the service/maintenance provider? If they are wiring it up and presumably programming it then they may have a particular type they prefer or know how to use/program?
mike os
just a little insane.....
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in that case any major brand will suit because the paperwork/certification for the drive will be correct, dont over spec, just go for a simple inverter with a power rating close to the motor rate
i would suggest a metal enclosure that is oversize and at least ip66... the size will aid cooling, same for the glands
Okay - that's a bit different - but I would then suggest they need to work with stuff they already know and are comfortable with - specify something else and they will point their finger at you instead when it doesn't quite do what they want or fails all the time.
daleyd
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One thing to be aware of when ordering pendants and switchgear is the type of control that the drive expects to see. Some can be configurable to use either a maintained input (eg sector switch to run/stop) or a pulse (push button to start/push button to stop) but some can’t be altered.
Munkul
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@Kayos @MCKDAVID I know exactly what you mean, being in industry myself we wouldn't dream of lashing something together outside of our respective trades, but that's because there are proper budgets and stringent standards to maintain.
I think brad has explained the general feeling of his client which seems to be a long way off this. If he doesn't do it then someone else probably will, with worse results...
Having said all that, he'll have to watch he's not sailing too close to the wind of PUWER, after all if there is an accident.... brown creek without propulsion
I think brad has explained the general feeling of his client which seems to be a long way off this. If he doesn't do it then someone else probably will, with worse results...
Having said all that, he'll have to watch he's not sailing too close to the wind of PUWER, after all if there is an accident.... brown creek without propulsion
I think Brad know better than any of us internet heros about what liability and risks he's willing to take on and where he isn't.
Some of the attitudes on here are so risk averse it's a wonder they get out of the front door in the morning...
It's not "attitudes to risk" - as soon as you supply it to someone else, be it a massive multi-million pound new bakery for some multi-national, or a "small bakery in the **** end of Essex", the same requirements under law apply - and the same penalities apply, regardless of the bloke in charge or the bloke on the shopfloor, saying "it'll be alright mate . . "
Modify an existing machine, and changing it's method of drive and control, as this is, almost definitely brings it under the CURRENT requirements of all laws and regulations applying to machinery in the UK. consequences ranging from nothing at all, to paying for re-work to bring it up to standard, to jail time for causing injury and death.
Speaking as a Design and Development engineer for a major supplier in food industry machinery supply, rather than an "internet hero".
I have the reasonably backing of a multi-national company and it's legal team behind me - if like my dad was, you are self-employed and not quite set-up correctly . . . there goes the house to pay for any consequences of ignoring legal requirements in the supply and modification of machinery . . .
I'm also pretty sure if I knowing ignore standard regulations, that large multi-national legal team will leave me high and dry . . .
Brad93
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One week your company is a major food industry supplier the next you scrape in machines still so which is it? Or do you do everything...
Agroshield
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Question is, will he be buying in multiples of 12 or 13?
