Energy prices.

[fizzy]

Re solar panels it’s be good to get some real data from people that have them fitted. The 40kw/800w is a reduction of 98% whereas most solar panel info suggests they produce between 10-25% even in cloudy days

Tesco have a big LED meter on the wall showing all the data.
A few years ago SW Wales had a period of 3 whole months when it literally rained every day and we didn't see even a glimmer of blue sky for the whole time. Seriously grim.
My brother and I decided to go for a spin just to see some blue sky. We got as far as Monmouth and it was great.
There was no wind either for the whole time.

Pembrokeshire village Eglwyswrw dry after 85 rain days

A Pembrokeshire village falls short of beating the record for most consecutive rain days.

www.bbc.co.uk

That village is in Pembrokeshire but Swansea was just the same as was the whole of SW Wales.
Flipping depressing!

 

[fizzy]

Re solar panels it’s be good to get some real data from people that have them fitted. The 40kw/800w is a reduction of 98% whereas most solar panel info suggests they produce between 10-25% even in cloudy days

It depends on how much cloud cover I expect.
Plenty of days in Winter here where you need headlights on in the daytime. Swansea is officially the wettest city in Britain and yet they are building loads of solar farms around here. It's madness.
The SE of England gets far less rain than us. It's surprising the difference.

 

[daleyd]

It depends on how much cloud cover I expect.
Plenty of days in Winter here where you need headlights on in the daytime. Swansea is officially the wettest city in Britain and yet they are building loads of solar farms around here. It's madness.
The SE of England gets far less rain than us. It's surprising the difference.

Unless you know the effect of your weather observations on a solar install over an annual cycle compared to somewhere else ( and have data to back it up) then, while interesting, they are just that - observations.

There are plenty of maps available showing the viability of solar around the UK, a quick search doesn’t really show that South Wales fares particularly badly compared to the rest of the country - certainly the further north you go the map looks a little less inviting…but all things a relative, if you can still make efficient use out of what energy you can generate then it becomes worthwhile I would have thought.

 

[Farside]

Tesco have a big LED meter on the wall showing all the data.
A few years ago SW Wales had a period of 3 whole months when it literally rained every day and we didn't see even a glimmer of blue sky for the whole time. Seriously grim.
My brother and I decided to go for a spin just to see some blue sky. We got as far as Monmouth and it was great.
There was no wind either for the whole time.

Pembrokeshire village Eglwyswrw dry after 85 rain days

A Pembrokeshire village falls short of beating the record for most consecutive rain days.

www.bbc.co.uk

That village is in Pembrokeshire but Swansea was just the same as was the whole of SW Wales.
Flipping depressing!

That's why the Welsh are such good singers. Just to cheer themselves up.

 

[fizzy]

Unless you know the effect of your weather observations on a solar install over an annual cycle compared to somewhere else ( and have data to back it up) then, while interesting, they are just that - observations.

There are plenty of maps available showing the viability of solar around the UK, a quick search doesn’t really show that South Wales fares particularly badly compared to the rest of the country - certainly the further north you go the map looks a little less inviting…but all things a relative, if you can still make efficient use out of what energy you can generate then it becomes worthwhile I would have thought.

In Portugal for my farmhous/villa it's a no brainer.
I will install a 4 to 6kw array - plenty of land. I will also fit a forklift battery. My 6k investment will be repaid in about 5 years.
How long would it take in Wales with our weather?
Portugal has cacti growing along the sides of the roads and Western Algarve is in almost permanent drought.
Agreed that now our electric is about 3x the price it should be solar makes more sense but when gas prices drop down again things will eventually get back to normal.

 

[J1nx]

The diy chain Leroy Merlin have been offering 350w panels at 150 euros here. There's also a place in the UK called (I think) Bimble Solar.

Unfortunately Bimble have moved to Brighton, an pita place to get to! They are no longer cheap either. Used to be able to get local panels from PV farms where surplus were ordered but they have all dried up from what I can see.

 

[daleyd]

In Portugal for my farmhous/villa it's a no brainer.
I will install a 4 to 6kw array - plenty of land. I will also fit a forklift battery. My 6k investment will be repaid in about 5 years.
How long would it take in Wales with our weather?
Portugal has cacti growing along the sides of the roads and Western Algarve is in almost permanent drought.
Agreed that now our electric is about 3x the price it should be solar makes more sense but when gas prices drop down again things will eventually get back to normal.

Excuse my ignorance but how is your 6k investment going to repay itself in that time frame if you are not there a lot of time to use the energy generated? Do Portugal still have a good feed in tariff?
It can be as sunny as you want, unless you are actually either getting good payments for exporting to the grid or using the electricity generated then it doesn't make sense...

In dreary Wales your panels may well be producing less Kwh annually (Though on another thread it has been noted that it was surprising how much panels were producing on an overcast day, so hence my question about real world examples and factual data) - but if you are able to benefit from the power produced then it may still be worth it. I've no doubt the payback would be longer here than somewhere sunnier , all other things being equal.

 

[fizzy]

Excuse my ignorance but how is your 6k investment going to repay itself in that time frame if you are not there a lot of time to use the energy generated? Do Portugal still have a good feed in tariff?
It can be as sunny as you want, unless you are actually either getting good payments for exporting to the grid or using the electricity generated then it doesn't make sense...

In dreary Wales your panels may well be producing less Kwh annually (Though on another thread it has been noted that it was surprising how much panels were producing on an overcast day, so hence my question about real world examples and factual data) - but if you are able to benefit from the power produced then it may still be worth it. I've no doubt the payback would be longer here than somewhere sunnier , all other things being equal.

AirBNB hopefully.
Running aircon in the day.
I don't think there are any feed in tariffs at all in Portugal but I may be wrong.

 

[daleyd]

AirBNB hopefully.
Running aircon in the day.
I don't think there are any feed in tariffs at all in Portugal but I may be wrong.

Ah, then yeah it makes perfect sense.

 

[Maker]

Excuse my ignorance but how is your 6k investment going to repay itself in that time frame if you are not there a lot of time to use the energy generated?

Run a cable back to Wales? Just need a million meters or so of SWA...

 

[J1nx]

Run a cable back to Wales? Just need a million meters or so of SWA...

These guys are planning to do it from Morocco with 3,800km of HVDC sub-sea cables…
https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/

 

[Gareth J]

How long would it take in Wales with our weather?

If that's not a rhetorical question, head onto the pvgis website. Plug in your proposed setup and it'll tell you pretty accurately what you'll generate. You can find out your consumption from bills. And if you're considering fitting batteries, what time of day generation happens is of less importance. If payback appears longer than your taste allows, try reducing the size of setup. Solar PV is currently significantly cheaper than gas/oil for hot water heating too so, aim to fulfill that requirement in summer. Will help reduce the size of battery pack needed

Run a cable back to Wales? Just need a million meters or so of SWA...

You laugh but...

The world's longest subsea cable will send clean energy from Morocco to the UK [update]

A 10.5 GW solar and wind farm is going to be built in Morocco, and it's eventually going to power 7 million homes in the UK.

electrek.co

Edit; too slow!

 

[charlysays]

It depends on how much cloud cover I expect.
Plenty of days in Winter here where you need headlights on in the daytime. Swansea is officially the wettest city in Britain and yet they are building loads of solar farms around here. It's madness.
The SE of England gets far less rain than us. It's surprising the difference.

One thing Wales has lots of is water. Hydro, air source/ ground source heat pumps and perhaps solar thermal panels are the answer. Even on a cloudy day solar thermal significantly warm the water above baseline.
Surely tidal lagoons would be a good idea but they never seem to get off the ground. 100% predictable stable energy.

 

[fizzy]

One thing Wales has lots of is water. Hydro, air source/ ground source heat pumps and perhaps solar thermal panels are the answer. Even on a cloudy day solar thermal significantly warm the water above baseline.
Surely tidal lagoons would be a good idea but they never seem to get off the ground. 100% predictable stable energy.

Even in Portugal 2 or 3 cloudy days means the solar hot water is too cold for a shower and the immersion heater has to be used. We get a lot more than 3 cloudy days here!
Hydro is great but almost every commercial source has been exploited already.
Tidal lagoons are more expensive than a barrage as you need to create 3 walls not one. Most tidal schemes have been abandoned due to silting and marine growth. Tidal lagoons aren't new either. There was actually one in Swansea in the 1800s at the same place where they want to build one now.

 

[charlysays]

Even in Portugal 2 or 3 cloudy days means the solar hot water is too cold for a shower and the immersion heater has to be used. We get a lot more than 3 cloudy days here!
Hydro is great but almost every commercial source has been exploited already.
Tidal lagoons are more expensive than a barrage as you need to create 3 walls not one. Most tidal schemes have been abandoned due to silting and marine growth. Tidal lagoons aren't new either. There was actually one in Swansea in the 1800s at the same place where they want to build one now.

Oh for sure, you won't have a shower from it on a cloudy day but it will significantly reduce the work the immersion heater has to do. Even just a 10-15 degree rise in temp is worthwhile. On sunny days I've seen boiling water coming from them.

Yeah tidal lagoons aren't as good as a barrage but they certainly don't cause the issues with wetlands up stream that a barrage would.

There must be a way to make hydro work. Other countries manage it, even France has more hydro than we do which is ridiculous considering our huge coast line and enormous tidal range.

My mate has hydro on his smallholding. A stream, a 10m or so drop, a 1930s impeller / housing and a feed in setup. He basically doesn't pay any electricity bills and charges an electric car off it too. Maintenance isn't huge, mostly just brushing the screen clear where the partial diversion of the steam is. He's been doing it 20 years. Quids in.
Hard to imagine British industry can't scale it up a bit.

 

[fizzy]

Oh for sure, you won't have a shower from it on a cloudy day but it will significantly reduce the work the immersion heater has to do. Even just a 10-15 degree rise in temp is worthwhile. On sunny days I've seen boiling water coming from them.

Yeah tidal lagoons aren't as good as a barrage but they certainly don't cause the issues with wetlands up stream that a barrage would.

There must be a way to make hydro work. Other countries manage it, even France has more hydro than we do which is ridiculous considering our huge coast line and enormous tidal range.

My mate has hydro on his smallholding. A stream, a 10m or so drop, a 1930s impeller / housing and a feed in setup. He basically doesn't pay any electricity bills and charges an electric car off it too. Maintenance isn't huge, mostly just brushing the screen clear where the partial diversion of the steam is. He's been doing it 20 years. Quids in.
Hard to imagine British industry can't scale it up a bit.

France only has 1 tidal power station and has never built any more which says a lot.
As to hydro sadly Britain doesn't have the same topography as France, Norway or Canada. France has some pretty huge mountain ranges.

 

[merryman]

There has been quite a lot of micro-hydro quietly going in on rivers in Lancashire and Cumbria, probably the same in Wales, for some reason Archimedes screws seem to be flavor of the decade, even in low volume, high head, sites, which seems downright weird.

A few years back I saw someone proposing fitting the plinths used for offshore wind turbines with underwater propeller type turbines to catch the flow as tides go in and out, seemed like a good idea, as impact on the marine environment would be minimal, unlike barrages etc, but I haven't heard anything about them since.

 

[willie.macleod]

Experimental data has been produced showing charger efficiency from 49% to 77% (Kieldsen, et al., 2016) and 85.7% (Sears, et al., 2014). This is from the plug to the car.

The authors attribute these figures to value engineering of charging equipment to create readily affordable units rather than those capable of high efficiency. Further to this, Sears et al. state that “Under-dimensioned components cause higher heat dissipation that makes cooling necessary, which is an additional power consumption” meaning that in order to optimise charging efficiency, it is necessary to correctly specify components and software to reduce energy losses.

Sears et at. also states “A power converter with an efficiency of 95 % have a decrease in efficiency of 10 % when operating at half the nominal power”. It is apparent that in order to be able to advertise minimal charging duration, it is necessary to have a high charging capacity i.e.,43kW (63A, 400V) “rapid chargers”. The availability of these charging points is relatively low with only 21.3% of publicly available charging points being able to support ≥63A (Department for Transport, 2021_h). Thus, the majority of charging that will take place, especially for those who charge at home using a standard 13, 16 or 32 amp connection, will incur significant charging losses due to being below the designed peak efficiency of the charger.

If the experimentally derived charger efficiency data are applied to the manufacturer energy consumption figures, the energy usage “from the grid” can be calculated:

View attachment 345671

Are you suggesting here that the most efficient chargers are DC rapids charging at 43kW+?! I don't have access to the papers you are referencing but something doesn't add up here. Fast DC charging generates a lot of losses both in the charger and the battery itself. That's why your battery temperature increases and big fans kick into life in the charger stations to deal with the heat.

Your quote about charging at home incurring significant charging losses due to "below the designed peak efficiency of the charger" suggests a fundamental misunderstanding by the author about how EV chargers work. The rapid DC chargers are the big boxes that have their own heavy charging leads with either a CCS or a CHAdeMO connector. They ARE the charger, and offer direct access to the vehicles battery.

The onboard chargers in EVs are the ones that deal with the 13/16/32A AC connections. They are designed to run at this current level. The author is suggesting, that these chargers are very inefficient. So tonight I carried out my own test to confirm my numbers.

Left home at 69% charge. Reset car trip odometer, reset my miles/kWh. Travelled exactly 14 miles, stopped at council charger to wait for my wife and charge. This was a charge at 16A. Car took 4.11kWh to charge back to 69%.

14/4.11=3.41 miles per kWh.
Car miles per kWh over the 14 miles reading 3.8kWh (exactly what @fizzy was quoting for the model S - wet weather, headwind not helping me)
3.41/3.8*100 = 89.6% efficiency

I quoted 90% efficiency before, that's pretty much exactly what I got. I can repeat this using the rapid charger and charge at 43kW and see what that gets me, I suspect it will be much the same in my case. EV chargers are not as inefficient as that old paper makes out!

 

[Mr Fro]

Are you suggesting here that the most efficient chargers are DC rapids charging at 43kW+?! I don't have access to the papers you are referencing but something doesn't add up here. Fast DC charging generates a lot of losses both in the charger and the battery itself. That's why your battery temperature increases and big fans kick into life in the charger stations to deal with the heat.

Your quote about charging at home incurring significant charging losses due to "below the designed peak efficiency of the charger" suggests a fundamental misunderstanding by the author about how EV chargers work. The rapid DC chargers are the big boxes that have their own heavy charging leads with either a CCS or a CHAdeMO connector. They ARE the charger, and offer direct access to the vehicles battery.

The onboard chargers in EVs are the ones that deal with the 13/16/32A AC connections. They are designed to run at this current level. The author is suggesting, that these chargers are very inefficient. So tonight I carried out my own test to confirm my numbers.

Left home at 69% charge. Reset car trip odometer, reset my miles/kWh. Travelled exactly 14 miles, stopped at council charger to wait for my wife and charge. This was a charge at 16A. Car took 4.11kWh to charge back to 69%.

14/4.11=3.41 miles per kWh.
Car miles per kWh over the 14 miles reading 3.8kWh (exactly what @fizzy was quoting for the model S - wet weather, headwind not helping me)
3.41/3.8*100 = 89.6% efficiency

I quoted 90% efficiency before, that's pretty much exactly what I got. I can repeat this using the rapid charger and charge at 43kW and see what that gets me, I suspect it will be much the same in my case. EV chargers are not as inefficient as that old paper makes out!

Good for you.

 

[fizzy]

Looks like windfarms are taking advantage of us big time.

Wind farms earn hundreds of millions more from energy crisis after delaying Government subsidy contract

According to a new analysis, the taxpayer could be half-a-billion pounds worse off due to a recently revealed delay at just one wind farm

www.gbnews.uk