Energy prices.

[fizzy]

The diy chain Leroy Merlin have been offering 350w panels at 150 euros here. There's also a place in the UK called (I think) Bimble Solar.

Gwill

I am seriously considering solar for my place in Portugal.
The UK though is probably one of the worst places in the World to have it - especially Wales.
Even Canada is better than Wales.
People forget just how far North we are. London is further North than any city in Canada!

 

[Hood]

Do solar panels actually need sunshine or is it light they need?

 

[fizzy]

Do solar panels actually need sunshine or is it light they need?

They will work on cloudy days but efficiency drops off massively.
A big Teso in Swansea has a huge array on the roof. In sunshine it maxes out at 40kw. On a dull day of typical Welsh weather it drops down to around 800w.
Scotland would be just as bad.

 

[Mr Fro]

My point being, that you seem to have accounted for a lot of those losses when looking at BEVs, but not included them for Petrol/Diesel fuel. The colours of the charts give rough breakdowns of energy expendatures. The most energy intensive listed as "production and conditioning at source" (I read that as getting the oil out and leaving the guff behind) and "transforming near market" (I read that as refining).

I understand your point and I agree with you. If 56% of our electricity comes from fossil then it incurrs the same ~ 20% processing cost as petrol & diesel which is why I think it would be interesting to apply that factor to the data I've already analysed.

Back of a fag packet would give something in the order of 546Wh/km for EV and 605Wh/km for standard diesel.

 

[Hood]

Depends where in Scotland, here on the Angus coast we have little rain in comparison to most places and in Summer we get up to almost 18hrs of daylight peak. Winter not so good as although still usually clearish skies the daylight hours drop to about 61/2-7 hrs

 

[daleyd]

Re solar panels it’s be good to get some real data from people that have them fitted. The 40kw/800w is a reduction of 98% whereas most solar panel info suggests they produce between 10-25% even in cloudy days

 

[fizzy]

Re solar panels it’s be good to get some real data from people that have them fitted. The 40kw/800w is a reduction of 98% whereas most solar panel info suggests they produce between 10-25% even in cloudy days

Tesco have a big LED meter on the wall showing all the data.
A few years ago SW Wales had a period of 3 whole months when it literally rained every day and we didn't see even a glimmer of blue sky for the whole time. Seriously grim.
My brother and I decided to go for a spin just to see some blue sky. We got as far as Monmouth and it was great.
There was no wind either for the whole time.

Pembrokeshire village Eglwyswrw dry after 85 rain days

A Pembrokeshire village falls short of beating the record for most consecutive rain days.

www.bbc.co.uk

That village is in Pembrokeshire but Swansea was just the same as was the whole of SW Wales.
Flipping depressing!

 

[fizzy]

Re solar panels it’s be good to get some real data from people that have them fitted. The 40kw/800w is a reduction of 98% whereas most solar panel info suggests they produce between 10-25% even in cloudy days

It depends on how much cloud cover I expect.
Plenty of days in Winter here where you need headlights on in the daytime. Swansea is officially the wettest city in Britain and yet they are building loads of solar farms around here. It's madness.
The SE of England gets far less rain than us. It's surprising the difference.

 

[daleyd]

It depends on how much cloud cover I expect.
Plenty of days in Winter here where you need headlights on in the daytime. Swansea is officially the wettest city in Britain and yet they are building loads of solar farms around here. It's madness.
The SE of England gets far less rain than us. It's surprising the difference.

Unless you know the effect of your weather observations on a solar install over an annual cycle compared to somewhere else ( and have data to back it up) then, while interesting, they are just that - observations.

There are plenty of maps available showing the viability of solar around the UK, a quick search doesn’t really show that South Wales fares particularly badly compared to the rest of the country - certainly the further north you go the map looks a little less inviting…but all things a relative, if you can still make efficient use out of what energy you can generate then it becomes worthwhile I would have thought.

 

[Farside]

Tesco have a big LED meter on the wall showing all the data.
A few years ago SW Wales had a period of 3 whole months when it literally rained every day and we didn't see even a glimmer of blue sky for the whole time. Seriously grim.
My brother and I decided to go for a spin just to see some blue sky. We got as far as Monmouth and it was great.
There was no wind either for the whole time.

Pembrokeshire village Eglwyswrw dry after 85 rain days

A Pembrokeshire village falls short of beating the record for most consecutive rain days.

www.bbc.co.uk

That village is in Pembrokeshire but Swansea was just the same as was the whole of SW Wales.
Flipping depressing!

That's why the Welsh are such good singers. Just to cheer themselves up.

 

[fizzy]

Unless you know the effect of your weather observations on a solar install over an annual cycle compared to somewhere else ( and have data to back it up) then, while interesting, they are just that - observations.

There are plenty of maps available showing the viability of solar around the UK, a quick search doesn’t really show that South Wales fares particularly badly compared to the rest of the country - certainly the further north you go the map looks a little less inviting…but all things a relative, if you can still make efficient use out of what energy you can generate then it becomes worthwhile I would have thought.

In Portugal for my farmhous/villa it's a no brainer.
I will install a 4 to 6kw array - plenty of land. I will also fit a forklift battery. My 6k investment will be repaid in about 5 years.
How long would it take in Wales with our weather?
Portugal has cacti growing along the sides of the roads and Western Algarve is in almost permanent drought.
Agreed that now our electric is about 3x the price it should be solar makes more sense but when gas prices drop down again things will eventually get back to normal.

 

[J1nx]

The diy chain Leroy Merlin have been offering 350w panels at 150 euros here. There's also a place in the UK called (I think) Bimble Solar.

Unfortunately Bimble have moved to Brighton, an pita place to get to! They are no longer cheap either. Used to be able to get local panels from PV farms where surplus were ordered but they have all dried up from what I can see.

 

[daleyd]

In Portugal for my farmhous/villa it's a no brainer.
I will install a 4 to 6kw array - plenty of land. I will also fit a forklift battery. My 6k investment will be repaid in about 5 years.
How long would it take in Wales with our weather?
Portugal has cacti growing along the sides of the roads and Western Algarve is in almost permanent drought.
Agreed that now our electric is about 3x the price it should be solar makes more sense but when gas prices drop down again things will eventually get back to normal.

Excuse my ignorance but how is your 6k investment going to repay itself in that time frame if you are not there a lot of time to use the energy generated? Do Portugal still have a good feed in tariff?
It can be as sunny as you want, unless you are actually either getting good payments for exporting to the grid or using the electricity generated then it doesn't make sense...

In dreary Wales your panels may well be producing less Kwh annually (Though on another thread it has been noted that it was surprising how much panels were producing on an overcast day, so hence my question about real world examples and factual data) - but if you are able to benefit from the power produced then it may still be worth it. I've no doubt the payback would be longer here than somewhere sunnier , all other things being equal.

 

[fizzy]

Excuse my ignorance but how is your 6k investment going to repay itself in that time frame if you are not there a lot of time to use the energy generated? Do Portugal still have a good feed in tariff?
It can be as sunny as you want, unless you are actually either getting good payments for exporting to the grid or using the electricity generated then it doesn't make sense...

In dreary Wales your panels may well be producing less Kwh annually (Though on another thread it has been noted that it was surprising how much panels were producing on an overcast day, so hence my question about real world examples and factual data) - but if you are able to benefit from the power produced then it may still be worth it. I've no doubt the payback would be longer here than somewhere sunnier , all other things being equal.

AirBNB hopefully.
Running aircon in the day.
I don't think there are any feed in tariffs at all in Portugal but I may be wrong.

 

[daleyd]

AirBNB hopefully.
Running aircon in the day.
I don't think there are any feed in tariffs at all in Portugal but I may be wrong.

Ah, then yeah it makes perfect sense.

 

[Maker]

Excuse my ignorance but how is your 6k investment going to repay itself in that time frame if you are not there a lot of time to use the energy generated?

Run a cable back to Wales? Just need a million meters or so of SWA...

 

[J1nx]

Run a cable back to Wales? Just need a million meters or so of SWA...

These guys are planning to do it from Morocco with 3,800km of HVDC sub-sea cables…
https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/

 

[Gareth J]

How long would it take in Wales with our weather?

If that's not a rhetorical question, head onto the pvgis website. Plug in your proposed setup and it'll tell you pretty accurately what you'll generate. You can find out your consumption from bills. And if you're considering fitting batteries, what time of day generation happens is of less importance. If payback appears longer than your taste allows, try reducing the size of setup. Solar PV is currently significantly cheaper than gas/oil for hot water heating too so, aim to fulfill that requirement in summer. Will help reduce the size of battery pack needed

Run a cable back to Wales? Just need a million meters or so of SWA...

You laugh but...

The world's longest subsea cable will send clean energy from Morocco to the UK [update]

A 10.5 GW solar and wind farm is going to be built in Morocco, and it's eventually going to power 7 million homes in the UK.

electrek.co

Edit; too slow!

 

[charlysays]

It depends on how much cloud cover I expect.
Plenty of days in Winter here where you need headlights on in the daytime. Swansea is officially the wettest city in Britain and yet they are building loads of solar farms around here. It's madness.
The SE of England gets far less rain than us. It's surprising the difference.

One thing Wales has lots of is water. Hydro, air source/ ground source heat pumps and perhaps solar thermal panels are the answer. Even on a cloudy day solar thermal significantly warm the water above baseline.
Surely tidal lagoons would be a good idea but they never seem to get off the ground. 100% predictable stable energy.

 

[fizzy]

One thing Wales has lots of is water. Hydro, air source/ ground source heat pumps and perhaps solar thermal panels are the answer. Even on a cloudy day solar thermal significantly warm the water above baseline.
Surely tidal lagoons would be a good idea but they never seem to get off the ground. 100% predictable stable energy.

Even in Portugal 2 or 3 cloudy days means the solar hot water is too cold for a shower and the immersion heater has to be used. We get a lot more than 3 cloudy days here!
Hydro is great but almost every commercial source has been exploited already.
Tidal lagoons are more expensive than a barrage as you need to create 3 walls not one. Most tidal schemes have been abandoned due to silting and marine growth. Tidal lagoons aren't new either. There was actually one in Swansea in the 1800s at the same place where they want to build one now.