So break it down into install costs vs running costs per property?Frame of reference is just different
For domestic context, the last project I delivered was 740 properties so can add a few more digits to that number
Well all the installs I've seen have had new rads as well - you'd hope someone would have done the transfer calcs?We don't use heat pumps be cause when we put in underfloor heating in the farm 20+ years ago, the statement was designed for the temp output of gas boiler. If I had known about heat pumps then, I would have requested more loops and a higher density of pipes, pipe us cheap as chips.
So I'm wondering if some of the issues that people have are that they have been sold a pup, heat pumps for a UFH system sized for gas temperature output?
We don't use heat pumps be cause when we put in underfloor heating in the farm 20+ years ago, the statement was designed for the temp output of gas boiler. If I had known about heat pumps then, I would have requested more loops and a higher density of pipes, pipe us cheap as chips.
So I'm wondering if some of the issues that people have are that they have been sold a pup, heat pumps for a UFH system sized for gas temperature output?
It's a rented house. The "engineer " comes out once a year. He wouldn't give me a manual because "most of our callouts are from people who have played with it", and he reckoned everything was fine and I was getting £4 out for every £1 I put in and it's great. You can't argue with idiots. The airsource pump can only get to forty degrees tops. Fine for underfloor but useless for radiators and useless in a poorly insulated house. I can believe they work under under ideal conditions, but how its exchanging heat when the fan is blowing freezing air is beyond me. Ground source surely has to make more sense as its never going to be freezing metres below ground so there is some actual heat to exchange. I found the manual on the net in the end, which is why it's now set to heat water only unless it's freezing.Might be worth getting someone to have a look at that then - just a thought![]()
My heating engineer did it. I have the original plans from when the UFH was installed. We do have quite a lot if insulation, but installed 20 years ago, I would double it now. For example, the walls are rubble filled stone, approx 300 yrs old. So I fixed 50mm kingspan/celotex backed plasterboard to the inside of all external walls. I would put 100mm in now, but I'm not going to retro fit it. I would rather wear an extra jumperHave you ran the numbers yourself for a heatpump on your UFH pipe? The floor temp won't be different for heatpump or gas boiler as it is limited anyway by the surface coverings. More pipe would allow the system to respond quicker but if the building has reasonable insulation then even with less pipe it may still be within acceptable Watts/m2 limits.
That’s a pain. If the fan outside is blowing out freezing cold air it’s because the heat pump has taken the heat out of it. Can’t remember what air source COP are measured at but could be 7C air temp into outdoor unit.It's a rented house. The "engineer " comes out once a year. He wouldn't give me a manual because "most of our callouts are from people who have played with it", and he reckoned everything was fine and I was getting £4 out for every £1 I put in and it's great. You can't argue with idiots. The airsource pump can only get to forty degrees tops. Fine for underfloor but useless for radiators and useless in a poorly insulated house. I can believe they work under under ideal conditions, but how its exchanging heat when the fan is blowing freezing air is beyond me. Ground source surely has to make more sense as its never going to be freezing metres below ground so there is some actual heat to exchange. I found the manual on the net in the end, which is why it's now set to heat water only unless it's freezing.
So break it down into install costs vs running costs per property?
There will be very little difference in the design of a heat pump underfloor heating system and a boiler underfloor heating system as the limitations are the maximum temperature that the pipe will accept and the screed / floor covering maximum permissible temp. The upper limit for the PEX pipe is about 50 C so ideally suited for a heat pump flow which is probably about 45 C without any temperature reduction. When using a gas boiler as the heat source, the maximum flow temperature is limited at the underfloor heating manifold by either local mixing valves or direct boiler temperature control so that the maximum pipe temperature is not exceeded. The density of the pipes would be to suit the area heat loss and wouldn't vary between either source.We don't use heat pumps be cause when we put in underfloor heating in the farm 20+ years ago, the statement was designed for the temp output of gas boiler. If I had known about heat pumps then, I would have requested more loops and a higher density of pipes, pipe us cheap as chips.
So I'm wondering if some of the issues that people have are that they have been sold a pup, heat pumps for a UFH system sized for gas temperature output?
actually its not with a stove you get a view as well as heat from the unit whilst also storing this heat within a hot water tankHeat people not places. I don't think any of these cold-calling installers have any idea about building physics. I've done a successful heat pump installation based around low-temperature underfloor background heat, with radiant panels for smaller specific areas where sedentary activities would take place. People don't overheat in the active bits or freeze in the stationary ones. The central heating concept is a big problem to my mind and a massive efficiency issue. Burning fuel to heat water to heat air to heat us is an enormous efficiency loss over numerous transitions, mostly to very good insulators which have a high specific heat capacity.
So when the temperature is around zero, it's useless, no?That’s a pain. If the fan outside is blowing out freezing cold air it’s because the heat pump has taken the heat out of it. Can’t remember what air source COP are measured at but could be 7C air temp into outdoor unit.
It's not useless, it can still extract heat from the outside air well below freezing but the efficiency drops off and it needs to use direct electric heat to defrost itself on occasion as well.So when the temperature is around zero, it's useless, no?
Another government folly….They are talking of installing a huge battery system in Yorkshire.
Will be the biggest in the World. 2.8gw/h - costing £750 million.
Current demand in the UK in winter reaches about 50gw/h - will be a heck of a lot more if they install all these heat pumps. Throw electric cars into the mix and where do they think all this power will come from?
Based on current usage with no increase in demand it would power Great Britain for 3 minutes and 30 seconds. What is the point? We can go 2 weeks with virtually no wind in Winter and solar is way down.
It'll never have to power the whole grid though. I suspect it will be used entirely for grid smoothing and even if you get no wind in winter for two weeks we certainly get plenty of wind here and that battery can be storing power generated anywhere on the grid at times of low demand and releasing at peak demand to help smooth peaks.Based on current usage with no increase in demand it would power Great Britain for 3 minutes and 30 seconds. What is the point? We can go 2 weeks with virtually no wind in Winter and solar is way down.
An area of high pressure can sit over the whole of Northern Europe in Winter for quite some time. Those cold bright frosty days. It happened last Winter and happens most years. Britain can be down as low as 2 to 3% wind power.It'll never have to power the whole grid though. I suspect it will be used entirely for grid smoothing and even if you get no wind in winter for two weeks we certainly get plenty of wind here and that battery can be storing power generated anywhere on the grid at times of low demand and releasing at peak demand to help smooth peaks.
I've given that some serious thought, as my gaff had a borehole put in by the previous owners, in the 1940s (old country creamery building). I'm on mains water, so the borehole is superfluous to my needs. From what I could gather, one borehole is insufficient, you need a second one to put the colder water back down into, and they need to be seperated by a reasonable distance. As it 'appens, I also have a disused well that's been capped over, about 30m away from the borehole, so I think I might be in with a chance of making it work.If we install a water borehole, can the same hole be used for some sort of heating/cooling system? Might be a way to get better value from the same project..?