Domestic air source and cold callers

[julianthegypsy]

Honestly - they’re not. Heat pumps have had a bad press due to poor experiences of early installations done to poor standards. how is getting £4 worth of energy for £1 a con?

It doesn't work like that for us. We have a sixties prefab which is therefore badly insulated, and radiators that get a bit warm if the thing is going like the clappers and using huge amounts of power, and when the weather gets really cold it barely works at all. I have set it to just heat water to stop it from using all our income. Horrible, useless, noisy, expensive piece of garbage.

 

[gaz1]

@Welderpaul he has the other system that has failed a few times and i believe he has a large enough open plan building

he can fill in on some details

 

[MetalMonkey]

I think the point is that yes, heat pumps can work if the entire system is properly designed.
However, the chance of this happening on a 1-day retrofit quickie on the average house, just whacked in to claim the BUS/MCS grants is... highly unlikely.
The chance of it happening on a new build where they can't even install the door hinges correctly. Well, draw your own conclusion...

Was somewhere the other day, the next door neighbour recently had their traditional boiler updated to a combi by one of these boiler upgrade outfits - main reason they went with it was to save the space of the cylinder.

No idea of the state of the install inside the property (she was complaining about the amount of damage they had done), but from outside I could see the flue exiting through the wall, with an SWA hanging loose down the wall resting up against it.
Condensate pipe run out almost horizontally across the entire side of the house, and then holesawed into the downpipe for the guttering about half way up where you could see the mastic spastic had been at work.

I guess the old boiler had been in there since built, so probably around 30 years.
Somehow I doubt the new one will make 3.

I reckon most of these heat pumps installations will have been pulled out and replaced in a few years time due to rubbish products or rubbish installs.
Nothing quite as environmentally friendly as replacing everything every couple of years, but then it all makes work for the working man to do.

 

[fizzy]

One thing they never seem to take into account with heat pumps etc is that they need to run most of the day. Nobody uses their central heating like that. Usually on first thing in the morning and then a few hours in the evening and that's it.

 

[GRW]

My Worcester traditional type (not combi) was installed new in 98 or 99.
It's been (so far & touch wood) fantastic.
I've resisted all pressure to "upgrade it" to a modern Condensing Boiler "which will be so much more efficient blah, blah".
My old (& sadly now retired Boiler guy) advised me to keep it going along as possible. Yes he said, a Condensing Boiler will use a bit less oil - but it'll break down in a few short years, & need replacing a few sort years after that (so any money "saved" is more than used up by ongoing repair and hassle).
Basically the same thing that happens with anything so-called "better" now, be it cars or washing machines etc.
Anyway, my small semi has thermalite block inner skin cavity walls, heats up quickly and stays warm, and I use maybe 1000L of oil annually for all heating & hot water, even though the OH works from home so the place is occupied nearly all the time.... so why on earth would I swap out that Boiler unless I absolutely had to?

 

[fizzy]

My Worcester traditional type (not combi) was installed new in 98 or 99.
It's been (so far & touch wood) fantastic.
I've resisted all pressure to "upgrade it" to a modern Condensing Boiler "which will be so much more efficient blah, blah".
My old (& sadly now retired Boiler guy) advised me to keep it going along as possible. Yes he said, a Condensing Boiler will use a bit less oil - but it'll break down in a few short years, & need replacing a few sort years after that (so any money "saved" is more than used up by ongoing repair and hassle).
Basically the same thing that happens with anything so-called "better" now, be it cars or washing machines etc.
Anyway, my small semi has thermalite block inner skin cavity walls, heats up quickly and stays warm, and I use maybe 1000L of oil annually for all heating & hot water, even though the OH works from home so the place is occupied nearly all the time.... so why on earth would I swap out that Boiler unless I absolutely had to?

Our oil fired Worcester dates to about 2006. Big house and runs 23 rads. We have an oil fired AGA which I love. In the middle of the house so heat is not wasted. Runs for about 9 months of the year. Other end of the house we have a big woodburner and free wood. As a result I hardly ever turn the oil central heating on. Just for hot water etc. I use about 1000L of oil a year. When I was ill and couldn't get wood we used 1800L.

 

[Morrisman]

It doesn't work like that for us. We have a sixties prefab which is therefore badly insulated, and radiators that get a bit warm if the thing is going like the clappers and using huge amounts of power, and when the weather gets really cold it barely works at all. I have set it to just heat water to stop it from using all our income. Horrible, useless, noisy, expensive piece of garbage.

A couple of bungalows around my way have had them fitted, and the roar they make when running is terrible, on a quiet evening. I can hear them 100 yards down the road. Imagine dozens of houses in the same street doing it...

 

[waddycall]

i wouldnt advise it due to changing the waters enviroment and microbes best to keep things seperate and also look into other alternatives for heating and cooling they are there wether they are old or new

No - you could end up freezing your water supply

edit - sorry quoted wrong post. meant to be the one gaz was replying to

 

[waddycall]

Heat pumps: more than 80% of households in Great Britain ‘satisfied with system’

Exclusive: England, Scotland and Wales survey reports similar response to people with gas boilers

www.theguardian.com

 

[reb78]

No - you could end up freezing your water supply

edit - sorry quoted wrong post. meant to be the one gaz was replying to

I hadnt thought of that. Presumably if you hit water of sufficeint depth running the heating pipes lower than the water supply pipes could solve that?

Anyway. Just thinking out loud. Doesnt sound like it would work anyway.

 

[fizzy]

One of our customs customers does large scale geothermal installations all over Europe. They only install the underground pipe work etc. They use some pretty big drilling rigs. Been going years but they are flat out these days. Paperwork is a nightmare of course.

 

[Mikes]

I'm starting to get annoyed by people cold calling and telling me I must be elligable for free or discounted air source and solar pv. Many of our neighbours who are retired have taken the plunge, ripped out their oil boilers, had new rads fitted withe the aforementioned system. The widow opposite seemed to think the solar panels would run the system!
This morning one particularly annoying non-salesman told me I should change my mind and go for a free (massive assumption there since we are both working) heatpump system before the freebies stop and they stop the sale of boilers in 2026 - is this correct, will it be impossible to buy these after this date?
He seemed quite upset when I told him he couldn't be certain what would happen in the future...

Aren't the f**kwits put on earth by God to give us pleasure. Best to bait them into believing that you are interested and get excited at the prospect of an easy sale. When they are just about to peak, tell them to bugger off. Next month they will be selling something different.

 

[AdW]

If we install a water borehole, can the same hole be used for some sort of heating/cooling system? Might be a way to get better value from the same project..?

It is possible with open-loop ground source heat systems where you bring water from the ground to the heat exchanger, usually in a water holding tank. Wouldn't like to say how efficient the system would be - you may need to over pump the well beyond the requirements of your water supply needs. Of course the ground also needs to be able to release/supply sufficient water. Excess water from open loop systems are usually discharged at the surface or back into the ground to recharge the aquifer.

With closed-loop systems, the boreholes are fully grouted and a loop of pipe carries the heat exchange down into the ground and then back to the surface - I've never heard of one being used for water abstraction also from the same well. Might end up freezing the riser pipe from the water supply pump.

 

[reb78]

It is possible with open-loop ground source heat systems where you bring water from the ground to the heat exchanger, usually in a water holding tank. Wouldn't like to say how efficient the system would be - you may need to over pump the well beyond the requirements of your water supply needs. Of course the ground also needs to be able to release/supply sufficient water. Excess water from open loop systems are usually discharged at the surface or back into the ground to recharge the aquifer.

With closed-loop systems, the boreholes are fully grouted and a loop of pipe carries the heat exchange down into the ground and then back to the surface - I've never heard of one being used for water abstraction also from the same well. Might end up freezing the riser pipe from the water supply pump.

Interesting. Thanks!

Whats the depth of a heat source borehole out of interest? I know the depth needed to hit water here as we have a well in our hallway! - thats probably 25ft down.

 

[julianthegypsy]

One thing they never seem to take into account with heat pumps etc is that they need to run most of the day. Nobody uses their central heating like that. Usually on first thing in the morning and then a few hours in the evening and that's it.

I turned ours off at the isolator outside for a couple of days then ran it for a day to make hot water. I tried everything in fact. It burns through electricity and hardly heats anything whatever I do. Particularly annoying in cold weather.

 

[fizzy]

I turned ours off at the isolator outside for a couple of days then ran it for a day to make hot water. I tried everything in fact. It burns through electricity and hardly heats anything whatever I do. Particularly annoying in cold weather.

The people who moved into the old farmhouse I lived in spent £50k installing a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating. The Beast from the East struck. They had burst pipes in the attic and had to move into a B+B for 3 weeks. Their electricity bill was running at £800 a month - and that was before the prices went nuts so it would be over £2k a month now. They now use a Rayburn and the logburner just like we did
The nearest neighbour about a mile away did a big barn conversion using an airsource heatpump and underfloor heating. He is a builder and did everything by the book. Building inspectors poking their noses in constantly as it is in the Brecon Beacons national park. Really well insulated. He put a woodburner in just in case. Now he has to rely on the woodburner most of the time.

 

[waddycall]

I turned ours off at the isolator outside for a couple of days then ran it for a day to make hot water. I tried everything in fact. It burns through electricity and hardly heats anything whatever I do. Particularly annoying in cold weather.

Might be worth getting someone to have a look at that then - just a thought

 

[brewdexta]

My brother lives on the North Yorkshire moors, he has a farm where he's converted all the outbuildings to holiday cottages.

All are either on ground or air sourced heat pumps. All have underfloor heating. The buildings using ground sourced have been installed for about 15 years, the air sourced about 5 years as it was used on a later building conversion.

All work, no issues. Although the cottages do have stoves, these are mainly for effect and are rarely used.

The only problem they had was the slinkies used on the ground source perforated in the trench after a couple of years. My brother got a local farmer to install them to save cash....... He moved it to a bore hole and its been fine since.

Their main consumer of electric are the Jacuzzis that two of the bigger cottages have. So this year they have installed around 24kWh of PV on the barn roof to offset the pumps and Jacuzzis.

Import/export monitoring is a bit of a problem as the smart meters don't work up there and they are on a split phase supply. I'm just sorting some monitoring kit that will work on split phase that he can get his spark to fit, or I'll do it if I get time.

 

[minimutly]

So, no domestic install good news then - thought as much. I will report back next April...
Sorry @brewdexta , posts crossed - so there is a good news install. Nice to hear. Any info on running costs?

 

[brewdexta]

So, no domestic install good news then - thought as much. I will report back next April...
Sorry @brewdexta , posts crossed - so there is a good news install. Nice to hear. Any info on running costs?

My SiL may have some figures but it's hardly domestic, although the farmhouse and their daughter's cottage is also on the same or similar system. They do need more monitoring tools installed but I'm reticent to do it as i will be getting call outs, they are not overly technical.

Interestingly, I can hardly hear the air source pump fans when I'm there. Partially because I'm getting a bit mutton Jeff as I get older but even so, not really noticeable and the farm is in the middle of nowhere so noises standout more.