rusty69bus
moving to the goldcoast
- Messages
- 2,704
- Location
- limbo
turbine driven by hot air ?
- Thread starter snowcat
- Start date
- Messages
- 6,338
Or this rusty :full
- Messages
- 6,338
starting early bill?
Hydrogen Oxygen formed by passing electricity from batteries in car through water.Burn the gas in engine same as LPG.Water in fuel tank and by product water from the exhaust pipe.Tested a few years ago on UK telly on Top Gear.Also at Paris and Japanese motor show this year on Sky Men And Motors and the reporter said then that it will not become mainstream until all the oil has gone even though the technology is available.You can also run engines on:full[Methane]Need only to alter Jet size to convert from LPG.
Last edited:
zardoz
Old school Socialist
- Messages
- 2,217
- Location
- Chetser, UK
The "problem" with hydrogen oxygen cars is that the big petro chemical conglomerates wont be able to have the level of control over the fuel as they do with petroleum/bio fuels. So they are not at all keen on it, whilst pretending to be for their public front.
peterd51
happy to be here!
- Messages
- 1,593
Hi,
the way I see it, if this water, hydrogen, oxygen car was up to modern standards then everyone would want one...
why, after it was demostrated that it works, is no-one interested until the oil runs out?
Is it because it doesn't perform as well as a petrol or diesel car?
Can it just be turned on when required and run up to 80 mph on a motorway?
Does it only work on cars the size of a Sinclair C5 (brilliant concept, wrong market...he'd have sold millions of them if aimed at the leisure industry, golfing/holiday resort runabout, etc).
There must be something wrong with the technology or we'd all want one now!
Regards
Peter
the way I see it, if this water, hydrogen, oxygen car was up to modern standards then everyone would want one...
why, after it was demostrated that it works, is no-one interested until the oil runs out?
Is it because it doesn't perform as well as a petrol or diesel car?
Can it just be turned on when required and run up to 80 mph on a motorway?
Does it only work on cars the size of a Sinclair C5 (brilliant concept, wrong market...he'd have sold millions of them if aimed at the leisure industry, golfing/holiday resort runabout, etc).
There must be something wrong with the technology or we'd all want one now!
Regards
Peter
Yep, it has crap VE (amount of energy per litre) compared to petrol, and from wikipedia :-
" hydrogen vehicles utilizing hydrogen produced using hydrocarbons, produce more pollution than vehicles consuming gasoline, diesel, or methane in a modern internal combustion engine, and far more than plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.[6][4] This is because, although hydrogen fuel cells generate no CO2, production of the hydrogen creates additional emissions.[7] While methods of hydrogen production that do not use fossil fuel would be more sustainable,[8] currently such production is not economically feasible, and diversion of renewable energy (which represents only 2% of energy generated) to the production of hydrogen for transportation applications is inadvisable.[4]"
Closest you can get to being practical and low emissions at the moment is a retrofit lpg system. Vasty reduced tailpipe emissions, no loss of performance when the car is set up for it (lpg is 110 octane, and the lower calorific value of it can be overcome by running more ignition advance and a higher cr as it is more knock tolerant), and its nicer on the engine (the oil comes out clean). I put 220,000 miles on my lpg mondeo estate, before the head gasket popped and we replaced the engine because of the high mileage (needlessly, it was in very good condition inside).
Snowy, the other poster was right, I was thinking of running straight waste veggie oil, instead of biodiesel so ignore my comments about the lifespan of the diesel pump etc.
Sparky, rather than getting hung up over the viability or big corporates quashing it, how about leading by example and building one yourself and posting it up in projects? Im CERTAIN if you get one working, about a day later a lot of people will be doing their own. You can adapt a petrol engine to run on hydrogen happily, so you just need to make a electrolysis rig to extract said hydrogen that doesnt consume more electric power to do the electrolysis than it produces in hydrogen, which I believe is the conventional sticking point to the design.
" hydrogen vehicles utilizing hydrogen produced using hydrocarbons, produce more pollution than vehicles consuming gasoline, diesel, or methane in a modern internal combustion engine, and far more than plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.[6][4] This is because, although hydrogen fuel cells generate no CO2, production of the hydrogen creates additional emissions.[7] While methods of hydrogen production that do not use fossil fuel would be more sustainable,[8] currently such production is not economically feasible, and diversion of renewable energy (which represents only 2% of energy generated) to the production of hydrogen for transportation applications is inadvisable.[4]"
Closest you can get to being practical and low emissions at the moment is a retrofit lpg system. Vasty reduced tailpipe emissions, no loss of performance when the car is set up for it (lpg is 110 octane, and the lower calorific value of it can be overcome by running more ignition advance and a higher cr as it is more knock tolerant), and its nicer on the engine (the oil comes out clean). I put 220,000 miles on my lpg mondeo estate, before the head gasket popped and we replaced the engine because of the high mileage (needlessly, it was in very good condition inside).
Snowy, the other poster was right, I was thinking of running straight waste veggie oil, instead of biodiesel so ignore my comments about the lifespan of the diesel pump etc.
Sparky, rather than getting hung up over the viability or big corporates quashing it, how about leading by example and building one yourself and posting it up in projects? Im CERTAIN if you get one working, about a day later a lot of people will be doing their own. You can adapt a petrol engine to run on hydrogen happily, so you just need to make a electrolysis rig to extract said hydrogen that doesnt consume more electric power to do the electrolysis than it produces in hydrogen, which I believe is the conventional sticking point to the design.
Drains
Yeah, nah.
- Messages
- 7,718
- Location
- Sefton, South Island, NZ
So,
(2)H2O + energy = O2 + H2....
O2 + (2)H2 = energy + er, water.
Perpetual motion - or am I missing something? (...entropy)
Has Mr F put his finger on the problem?
- Messages
- 6,338
No as I understand it thats the major sticking point, It does not work, If it does then Id love to see the working prototype...
and why would if anyone ever does gets the technology working, wish to produce it for free, Im sure the patent for perpetual motion will have a fair price tag attached to it...
A farm that ive done some work on produces methane gas ,from the erm cow "waste" :full
Anaerobic digester i believe is the term
, its quite a complicated process but the waste is put into kinda fibreglass domes and heated to produce the gas ,some of the gas is used for the heating process and the rest runs their aga for year round free hot water and heat .
the plant is around 20 years old i believe and the original manufacturer a local company callled farm gas went tits up years ago
theyve had a few problems over the years with corroded solonoid valves etc but its fairly maintaince free just tended to for 10 minuites a day .
My local agricultural college has recenty installed a new anerobic digester which they use to run a generator to supply the colege with electricity not seen it tho but that would of been ££££££
cheers mike
Anaerobic digester i believe is the term
, its quite a complicated process but the waste is put into kinda fibreglass domes and heated to produce the gas ,some of the gas is used for the heating process and the rest runs their aga for year round free hot water and heat .the plant is around 20 years old i believe and the original manufacturer a local company callled farm gas went tits up years ago
theyve had a few problems over the years with corroded solonoid valves etc but its fairly maintaince free just tended to for 10 minuites a day .
My local agricultural college has recenty installed a new anerobic digester which they use to run a generator to supply the colege with electricity not seen it tho but that would of been ££££££
cheers mike
- Messages
- 17,493
They featured that on top gear a few years back, set up 3 rover 200s on a drag race, one using methane from cow poo, one using methane from human poo (supposedly Richard Hammonds
) and one using petrol. Petrol won, cow poo 2nd then human.
bill_gj
Tired and irritable
- Messages
- 1,423
- Location
- Essex, UK
Snowcat -- "Starting early?" It seemed the appropriate point to interject, re: beer, as the heat ouput of the discussion as rising, a bit.
Anyway, I'm not allowed booze this week as Daktari tells me I have a chest infection and has given me antibios to eat.
It's the curse of living on the edge of the interminable Essex swamps.....I can hear the drums beating as the sun goes down....
On the hydrogen side o things, Eng-Tips forum (http://www.eng-tips.com) has discussed the whole 'hydrogen economy' issue and, although I'm no chemist, I think the issue is......it currently takes more energy to make hydrogen than the useful work you get from it when burned in an internal combustion engine.
So you can feel smug about just having steam as the exhaust, but the same pollution sh#t has been pumped into the atmosphere already in making the hyrdogen in the first place.
The drums have stopped......
Anyway, I'm not allowed booze this week as Daktari tells me I have a chest infection and has given me antibios to eat.
It's the curse of living on the edge of the interminable Essex swamps.....I can hear the drums beating as the sun goes down....
On the hydrogen side o things, Eng-Tips forum (http://www.eng-tips.com) has discussed the whole 'hydrogen economy' issue and, although I'm no chemist, I think the issue is......it currently takes more energy to make hydrogen than the useful work you get from it when burned in an internal combustion engine.
So you can feel smug about just having steam as the exhaust, but the same pollution sh#t has been pumped into the atmosphere already in making the hyrdogen in the first place.
The drums have stopped......
irondarren
Member
- Messages
- 2,583
Interesting about farm waste, and pig poop and using it for methane. Its more than possible to use human poop to produce methane, perhaps we should all stop using the toilet and start pooping in a 45 gallon drum. Most things are easy enough its just the cost, new housing estates of more than 500 houses, could easy have poop processing plant built near by. The methane could be burned to produce power for electricity etc, but the added cost to a housing estate of 500 houses would make it unaffordable. Most of this sort of technology is in its infant stages, and as such its expensive but as time goes on it gets cheaper.
- Messages
- 6,338
Oh yes the methane from animal waste can be used no problems (the flip is livestock farming creates one of the largest amounts of greenhouse gas,,,methane) , actualy as I think Mikey mentioned, from the 80s maybe before, along with straw burners, The wood chip burner that iv been asked to build will be partly heat pump feeding coils through the mulch, and partly ex straw burner.... When you start to dig you find there's little new, the problem with much of this gear its just sooo expensive as its very niche... also the efficancy is not great with much of it, Something like a heat pump uses huge great 3 phase motor's to wind the water round the miles of pipe.....so really how green is it?..
Complex very...the more you learn the less clear it all becomes.. and bill il try and keep the drums down tonight..
Complex very...the more you learn the less clear it all becomes.. and bill il try and keep the drums down tonight..
irondarren
Member
- Messages
- 2,583
The biggest problem with greenhouse gas are as you say livestock and people, once the ice caps melt and flood the land. That should reduce the number of livestock and people to a level where the eco system can cope, reduce planetary population by 50% and there wont be a problem. Its happend several times before and will not doubt happen again. The real solution to global warming is a reduction of population clear and simple, anything else is just delaying the enevitable
peterd51
happy to be here!
- Messages
- 1,593
Hi,
Yes, spot on!
These people that have the arrogance to state that man will destroy the planet have no idea what they're talking about.
We'll make the planet uninhabitable for humans long before we destroy it.
Ants and scorpions will rule the planet one day!
Regards
Peter
Yes, spot on!
These people that have the arrogance to state that man will destroy the planet have no idea what they're talking about.
We'll make the planet uninhabitable for humans long before we destroy it.
Ants and scorpions will rule the planet one day!
Regards
Peter
