1958 Deckel FP2

  1. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I cleaned out the sump on the FP2, been putting it off because it was nasty work.

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    Corner to the left was difficult to reach
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    This is what the pump sucks up fluid through. When I got it up it was covered in brown goop but also wrapped with a fine mesh held in place with steel wire. Looked like an addition after the fact.
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    Inside was a coarser mesh that looked factory installed, I removed it and used the finer mesh to make a new one that fit inside instead.
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    I'm not quite done with cleaning the sump out yet, once the machine is back together and the pump is running I will fill it with warm water & potassium hydroxide and flush it out.

    After that... I am not sure, use the machine with coolant or not... I have before used Ballistol and water in a squirt bottle, this worked well and never rusted anything on my lathe. But this summer I bought commercial coolant concentrate and mixed up that in a squirt bottle and it's nasty stuff man. Attacked the zinc coating of some sheet metal coversI had made for the lathe and left a sticky residue and caused rust. I really thought a comercial solution would have been better than my homemade ballistol mixture. I am not at all wanting to use up the keg of concentrate I bought if this is how it behaves. Been thinking if I can sell it.

    I've heard some people use neat oil in their coolant systems instead, apparently it lasts decades, just topped up now and then. And never any rust issues. But you don't want to use it with cast iron then, and it smokes and is messier and has no real cooling effect. I do think the few times I would want to use coolant I would want it for the cooling effect too.

    I've also considered making my own fog buster instead and move it between the lathe and mill, that would use a lot less coolant and make less of a mess. But it also feels like a waste to have two machines equipped with coolant pumps and not use it...
     
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  2. Carl Wilson Member

    Messages:
    1,732
    Location:
    Moray
    IMG-20191028-WA0032.jpeg I have to clean out the sump on my Harrison Mill and I'm not looking forward to it. I'm currently sorting out the coolant pump which is in a mess from decades of congealed and contaminated coolant.

    The photo above shows heavy galvanic corrosion on the aluminium plate that closes out the cast iron impeller housing. This is due to dissimilar metal contact and the presence of water mixed with dirt and detritus.

    Like you I'm not sure what to do Re coolant. I use castrol Ilocut 486 on my lathe so I may go with that. It's a neat cutting coolant/lubricant oil.
     
  3. slim_boy_fat

    slim_boy_fat Forum Supporter

    You need an apprentice (or at least a glamorous assistant) :D
     
  4. Carl Wilson Member

    Messages:
    1,732
    Location:
    Moray
    Like Steve Summers.
     
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  5. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    Carl, about this castrol Ilocut 486, how viscous is it compared to cutting fluid? One of the things I do like about cutting fluid is that it just runs off quickly of the machine, the cutting oil that I use is pretty viscous though and makes a mess of things and hangs around until wiped off.

    I should probably take apart the pump as well.
     
  6. Carl Wilson Member

    Messages:
    1,732
    Location:
    Moray
    Viscosity of Castrol Illocut 486 is listed as 22 centistokes. It is as thin as hydraulic fluid so it must be in the 32 to 22 centistokes range in any event.

    It runs off quickly and easily in the same way as soluble coolant. It is meant as a replacement for soluble.

    Your pump will probably be as dirty as mine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  7. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I had the coolant pump apart last night and back together even, I have to say it was quite a painless job compared to the other parts of the machine I've had apart, even the screws didn't give me any lip. Seems to be mostly cast iron and steel, no corrosion I could see, just lots of the same brownish gunk as in the sump. The pump system seems to be two straight gears that rotate in a housing, this then creates suction I guess.
     
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  8. Carl Wilson Member

    Messages:
    1,732
    Location:
    Moray
    A gear pump. Meshing and unmeshing generates suction. They tend to supply a sinusoidally varying pressure output but that's of course no issue for a coolant pump.
     
  9. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    Oh yes. I never did have the nerve to box up this part and send it ot California. I was just too scared of it going missing, and there were all kinds of unknowns about part values and getting stuck with import duties. So I am back to considering my own repair, or checking with a local shop.

    That leads me to this post... How to set up a part in a lathe when one side is ruined... Ideally it would be turned between centers but that's not possible now. So the 4-jaw is the answer, and using the fixed steady. I tried with the 3-jaw but there was too much run-out. A collet chuck would have been nice because it was somewhat annoying to indicate the part near the jaws because of the splines, had to retract the indicator needle when turning it, indicated against the inner ground face. Then I used the steady to do final adjustments because it was not entirely straight in the chuck and then I got it down to a little less than .01 mm runout which I think is good enough.

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    Still, I have to break this down again and cut off the broken piece on the bandsaw. Planning a 2-part repair. LH-thread so it will be self-locking, I will use Loctite 272 to affix the new part.

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    I will attach it as an unfinished oversize part and turn to size after it's attached to keep everything concentric. I suppose if one is truly paranoid you could pin the part in place afterwards as well but I don't think the red loctite will give up the ghost in a self-tightening setup. I know some companies use green loctite to attach gears to shafts in their trucks, no keys.
     
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  10. Shox Dr

    Shox Dr Chief Engineer to Carlos Fandango

    Messages:
    15,475
    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    Loctite 648 (green) used with Activator 7649, makes for a very solid fixture. I used it on a MTB evolution headset that wouldn't lock down. I had to peel the locknut off when I came to service it, it was that well held.
     
  11. Pete.

    Pete. Member

    Messages:
    9,427
    Location:
    Kent, UK
    Why don't you weld it up and re-cut key and thread? Not got much to lose by trying it. The late John Stevenson was a master at doing them:

    https://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forum/general/34154-bridgeport-rotor-shaft-repair

    https://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/f...to-do-with-a-mig-welder?p=1228982#post1228982

    https://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forum/general/35195-bent-shaft?p=675400#post675400

    By the way if you turned your shaft around you could put the centre in the good end and the ruined end in the 4-jaw, dial it in and machine yourself a nice true reference for the steady rest.
     
  12. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I'm not sure if the material is weldable or not, and it feels safer to not weld. If I had a welding positioner I think I would attempt it with TIG, but I don't have one.

    A purely mechanical solution feels like it has less potential for surprises and should be strong enough, I wonder if red loctite 272 over a large thread area isn't as strong as a weld would be. I'm also afraid if I try to weld it, I might negatively affect the portion of the shaft I am trying to save (it's surface hardened).
     
  13. Pete.

    Pete. Member

    Messages:
    9,427
    Location:
    Kent, UK
    Ah well if it's hardenable steel then that's a different ball game. Although the piece you machine to replace it won't be hardened.
     
  14. Seadog

    Seadog Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    6,466
    Location:
    NE London - UK
    You could have turned a sleeve that is a close fit on the splines and then split it. That way you can use the OD of the sleeve as your reference surface.
     
  15. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    True but this part of the shaft is not hardened either. It was probably induction hardened in a bath when it was made and only those surfaces where hardened for some reason.
     
  16. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I was thinking last night, if I should try and tig braze the worn parts, cut a groove on the lathe where it's worn and fill in slowly with tig braze, might be low amp enough to work I am thinking.

    I am planning to go from 4 to 6mm keys anyway so the slot being a bit ragged in the edges might not matter.
     
  17. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I decided to take a closer look at the gear shifting mechanism. I was curious... And I have been able to find absolutely ZERO on it online and I am usually pretty good at digging stuff up. So here are some images that hopefully shows how it works and removes some of the mystery, it was only a partial disassembly, I did not want to start banging on the tapered pin on the center pivot in order to get it out to disassemble it completely.

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    There are milled tracks that control how the gear shifting levers move

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    There are two tracks total and they are all milled onto one very large gear. The system is a lot simpler than I thought it would be, really there doesn't seem to be anything you can even do to make it go out of time as the tracks are all milled on one part and locked to each other. If there had been two wheels instead that rotated against each other, then it would be possible to affect the timing. This is all a lot more simple than I thought, but a lot more robust.

    Probably a very complicated part to make however....

    I hosed out the innards with WD40 (got black stuff and the same aluminum metal particles coming out of it, they seem to have infiltrated every nook and cranny of this machine) and cleaned it up.

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  18. Seadog

    Seadog Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    6,466
    Location:
    NE London - UK
    It's using what is known as a 'face cam,' Dennis. Quite common in motorcycle gearboxes.
     
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  19. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I've replaced the broken threaded part now. I could not find Loctite 272 except in a 50ml bottle and I don't need more than 5ml, so I went with 2701, hope it's good enough in this application. Now I just need to turn the features on this piece and I can have someone mill a 6mm slot in it and it's done.

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  20. Dennis Aspö

    Dennis Aspö Member

    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Finland
    I found a Deckel FP2... Incomplete, missing vertical head and Y-axis screw and no table, but otherwise it looks to be in ok shape and only 700 ish euros... I am wondering if I should buy it as a spare parts machine, though I don't really have room for a spare parts machine... Might solve a lot of problems, might even make the money back selling off parts.

    But I am balking at buying another damn machine and having it get in the way and keeping me mentally focused on other things than the end goal.
     
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