Focus TDCI wont tickover when cold

[anjum]

OP has checked cylinder head temperature, using his scan tool.

But a faulty sensor, if it has one, would still supply the wrong info to the fuel ECU.

Worth a look as it sholud be relatively cheap.

 

[garethp]

Probably not but wouldnt have anything to do with the crank or cam sensors would it? The crank sensor wouldnt show up on scantool anyhow... probably not the problem but just a thought.

I thought that too, a common problem is the cam sensor getting a poor signal which is fixed by fitting a modified sensor and wiring to take it from 5v to 12v operation, mine has the modified sensor/wiring fitted. I think the only way to rule them out would be to fit new sensors?

Do you know if this vehicle has a tank mounted priming pump and if it is working ?

Something else that I came across while googling it and I dont think one is fitted

from my experience you will always get 'gaps' in the fuel from the leakoff this may not actually be air but cavitation.
the only way to properly check common rail injectors on the engine is to connect a calibrated container to each of the injectors and run the vehicle and then compare the amount leaked off each injector they should be roughly equal but if any are passing amassive amount it won't start anyway, because it will not achieve the nessesary pressure to start. The air from the fuel system usually gets injected through the nozzle and thats what causes the timing to be 'out', and causes the missfire and white smoke.

I was thinking about doing a leak test mainly so I can get an idea of what the injectors are like - incidentially I disconnected the injector return hose from the filter to get some diesel to prime the new filter, the container I used to catch the fuel filled up quickly and the fuel was full of air. I put this down to the engine not using much fuel at tickover so the pump provides a surplus supply and the air being due to the pump scavanging what ever comes back from the injectors - which I assume will be a bit of fuel and a lot of air?

But a faulty sensor, if it has one, would still supply the wrong info to the fuel ECU.

Worth a look as it sholud be relatively cheap.

I think the temp sensors are ok, when it was cold the other morning the software showed head temp 4, fuel 5 and inlet air 9 degrees just after I started it and when I got home (20 mile drive) they showed head 88, fuel 40, inlet air 30. The fuel does seem a bit warm with a hot engine but apparently there is a bimetalic valve in the fuel filter to recirculate some of the fuel from the pump back to to the pump to warm it up.

 

[normspanners]

I was thinking about doing a leak test mainly so I can get an idea of what the injectors are like - incidentially I disconnected the injector return hose from the filter to get some diesel to prime the new filter, the container I used to catch the fuel filled up quickly and the fuel was full of air. I put this down to the engine not using much fuel at tickover so the pump provides a surplus supply and the air being due to the pump scavanging what ever comes back from the injectors - which I assume will be a bit of fuel and a lot of air?

I think you have answered your problem here, the pipe you disconnected I presume was the pipe that returns from the filter to the tank?, there maybe a little air there but not masses, the air was more likely in the pipe from the injection pump and the only place that can come from is the supply to it ie the filter or pipes to the pump. A diagnostic tool I use is a piece of soft clear hose in place of the various black plastic ones moving it from the supply to the filter, then from the filter to the pump etc etc.
If they use QR couplings and you get the correct size clear pipe it will fit in the QR and seal on the o ring, (you may need to hold it in) and you can push the other end over the steel stub the QR has come from. when you have fitted the clear pipe run the engine and look inside the pipe for air, if none move on until you see the air, this could be an o ring in a QR.
This is especially important if you do not have a primary pump! because with a p/pump you you would poss have a leak of fuel, but without a P/P the whole of the system from the tank is under a vacuum.

 

[garethp]

I think you have answered your problem here, the pipe you disconnected I presume was the pipe that returns from the filter to the tank?, there maybe a little air there but not masses, the air was more likely in the pipe from the injection pump and the only place that can come from is the supply to it ie the filter or pipes to the pump. A diagnostic tool I use is a piece of soft clear hose in place of the various black plastic ones moving it from the supply to the filter, then from the filter to the pump etc etc.
If they use QR couplings and you get the correct size clear pipe it will fit in the QR and seal on the o ring, (you may need to hold it in) and you can push the other end over the steel stub the QR has come from. when you have fitted the clear pipe run the engine and look inside the pipe for air, if none move on until you see the air, this could be an o ring in a QR.
This is especially important if you do not have a primary pump! because with a p/pump you you would poss have a leak of fuel, but without a P/P the whole of the system from the tank is under a vacuum.

The pipe I removed runs from the pump back to the filter and tank, there is a T which has the bottom leg connected to the filter (Does that make sense?)
The fuel that went into the jar was a constant stream but milky with air - not a spluttery flow of air with a bit of fuel, does that still sound like too much air?

When you mentioned an air leak earlier on I thought about using a clear pipe to check for bubbles and it does use QR fittings, I also thought about rigging up a temporary tank above the filter.

I've got something to work on now, my main concern was myself or the garage working through fitting new sensors or other parts to try and sort it and racking up a hefty bill before it was sorted.

 

[normspanners]

If it was milky with air that sounds far to much air, the tank above, idea I have used b4 but diesels can be b******s for drawing air in even from that!
I will not use 'jubilee' clips on diesel fuel lines because they do not tighten up 'round' because of the screw, I ALWAYS use proper fuel clips that remain round as they are tightened, and even then you can have problems.
When the mk6 trannys came out I recovered literally hundreds of them, (I was the local rac contractor) due to faulty filter heads allowing air in to the system causing them not to start or have problems like yours.

 

[Wedg1e]

I'm on my second Connect TDCi since '03; this one ('09) has been fine so far but the '03 eventually (after six years) developed a starting problem that even the local Ford dealer was reluctant to tackle - their best guess before we traded it in was that the fuel lines had 'gone porous' and it was allowing air in, causing fuel to drain back to the tank (no priming pump on a Connect).
Once started it ran perfectly, but it would only go with a shot of Easy-start. Had the AA out to it as well as a good rummage myself and we'd ruled out glow plugs, intake issues etc.

Word is that if you fit new injectors to the TDCi you have to reprogram the ECU with their serial numbers, or some such

 

[garethp]

Word is that if you fit new injectors to the TDCi you have to reprogram the ECU with their serial numbers, or some such

Thats correct - instead of it being a simple case of injector 1 connects to plug 1 and so on you need a magnifying glass to read a long serial code on the injector and pc/diagnostic connector to program the codes into the ECU.

Actually it wouldnt be too bad - the diagnostic tool I bought from ebay does it and it cost £14.99 Although I bet a dealer would make it sound like a big job and charge accordingly

 

[AndyStobbs]

Asked earlier but question must've got missed.
How does it die? A sudden cut out, or a cough and splutter down to nothing, or a racing idle before tapering off?

Secondly, how difficult is it to restart?
If you have air in the fuel system, to the HP pump and no LP pump for priming, then I would expect it to be really difficult to restart; but, if it restarts easily on virtually the turn of the key, the fuel is clearly still at the pump and you have to ask why did it cut out in the first place?

 

[AndyStobbs]

Thats correct - instead of it being a simple case of injector 1 connects to plug 1 and so on you need a magnifying glass to read a long serial code on the injector and pc/diagnostic connector to program the codes into the ECU.

Actually it wouldnt be too bad - the diagnostic tool I bought from ebay does it and it cost £14.99 Although I bet a dealer would make it sound like a big job and charge accordingly

The codes are a calibration code. Vehicle will still run fairly well with mismatched codes, but for best results you should re-code. Its all horses for courses, after 50,000 miles the injector will be so worn it makes a mockery of calibration.

I have formidable and couldn't get it to work when I tried using it to change injector codes. That was on a MK3 monde 2.0 130ps.
If you do start playing with injector codes, using formidable, I would advise you to ignore the steps relating to switching off the ignition during coding. As said I couldn't get it to work and used my Texa in the end to do it.

Also note, If you do recode injectors, vehicle should be stone cold upon first being started with the new codes. It will also run without pilot injection until driven a few miles - will sound a bit more diesel like and perhaps be a bit rough at first. After a run the ECU will get the pilot injection dialled in and its job done.

 

[normspanners]

The pipe I removed runs from the pump back to the filter and tank, there is a T which has the bottom leg connected to the filter (Does that make sense?)
The fuel that went into the jar was a constant stream but milky with air - not a spluttery flow of air with a bit of fuel, does that still sound like too much air?

how did you seal the hole in the filter ? if you didnt then it would be drawing masses of air in that hole, also you must have done that whilst it was running?

 

[Wedg1e]

The codes are a calibration code.

I presumed it'd have to be something ike that: resistance of winding, size of orifice etc. all tied up in a long number.
That way they can probably make any injector work on any of their own models.

 

[garethp]

Asked earlier but question must've got missed.
How does it die? A sudden cut out, or a cough and splutter down to nothing, or a racing idle before tapering off?

Secondly, how difficult is it to restart?
If you have air in the fuel system, to the HP pump and no LP pump for priming, then I would expect it to be really difficult to restart; but, if it restarts easily on virtually the turn of the key, the fuel is clearly still at the pump and you have to ask why did it cut out in the first place?

During the lumpy tickover it just stops dead, it doesnt cough or splutter. It starts again easily.

The codes are a calibration code. Vehicle will still run fairly well with mismatched codes, but for best results you should re-code. Its all horses for courses, after 50,000 miles the injector will be so worn it makes a mockery of calibration.

I have formidable and couldn't get it to work when I tried using it to change injector codes. That was on a MK3 monde 2.0 130ps.
If you do start playing with injector codes, using formidable, I would advise you to ignore the steps relating to switching off the ignition during coding. As said I couldn't get it to work and used my Texa in the end to do it.

Also note, If you do recode injectors, vehicle should be stone cold upon first being started with the new codes. It will also run without pilot injection until driven a few miles - will sound a bit more diesel like and perhaps be a bit rough at first. After a run the ECU will get the pilot injection dialled in and its job done.

Ah, I thought they were a serial number and if they weren't entered it wouldnt run. Bit of a bummer about Formidable not working properly but hopefully I wont need to change the injectors!

how did you seal the hole in the filter ? if you didnt then it would be drawing masses of air in that hole, also you must have done that whilst it was running?

The new filter had plastic blanking caps on, I pushed one of them onto the filter that was still on the car and yes it was running. It was cold while I did it and it stopped twice...

I started and moved the car tonight after it had sat for two hours - it ticked over ok.

 

[normspanners]

I have a transit here at the moment with bad starting have checked everything changed oil etc etc the guy has only just bought it, I told him that it should have a filter but he said that he had fitted one and it didnt need one. But the filter was just white, not genuine, So I spoke with my mate at the local ford dealers he has been there 30yrs!, he said re tranny filters that their garage do both a, genuine parts, service and an after market parts, service, BUT will not use a none genuine fuel filter for the same problems of not sealing I fitted one (RRP £ 26!!! )filled it and the thing started first compression-----
been out to it this morning and it fired first compression -------

 

[normspanners]

ps have spoken to loads of 'mechanics' lately that say oh yer I fill the new filter I pour the fuel outa the old in into the new one !!!! great the old filter has saved all that crap going into the pump then you pour it into the new one ----------WTF????

 

[garethp]

I have a transit here at the moment with bad starting have checked everything changed oil etc etc the guy has only just bought it, I told him that it should have a filter but he said that he had fitted one and it didnt need one. But the filter was just white, not genuine, So I spoke with my mate at the local ford dealers he has been there 30yrs!, he said re tranny filters that their garage do both a, genuine parts, service and an after market parts, service, BUT will not use a none genuine fuel filter for the same problems of not sealing I fitted one (RRP £ 26!!! )filled it and the thing started first compression-----
been out to it this morning and it fired first compression -------

I got a Delphi for that reason - read a few comments about cheap unbranded or unheard of brands

ps have spoken to loads of 'mechanics' lately that say oh yer I fill the new filter I pour the fuel outa the old in into the new one !!!! great the old filter has saved all that crap going into the engine then you pour it into the new one ----------WTF????

The contents of the old filter is sitting in a coffee jar in the garage, I did think about putting it back in tank but it didnt seem right for the reason you mention!

I'm not going to get a chance to have a proper look at it until the 12th/13th and I think I'll start by putting new qr fittings on the filter / pipes, I think its actually a tiny bit worse since I changed the filter so I'm thinking the o rings in the fittings may be past it? After all they're coming up for 9yr old. Are the fittings easily available?

 

[Cobbler]

When I changed the fuel filter on my Tranny camper van, I could not believe the muck I tipped out of the old filter. I would not like to tip it back in the tank!

Good point about original equipment filters though Norm, I used a pattern part, Fram I think, that was best part of £30 as I remember, so Ford about the same.

 

[normspanners]

Are the fittings easily available?

from ford you have to change the whole pipe but you can on some change the o rings but it is getting the o rings an exact match to fit in there, but I have just cut the fitting off the end of the shaped pipe when they have been damaged and used standard (but good quality) push fit QRs and adapt it to the filter. To give an example
just a leak off set, for a tranny is about £70 !!!

 

[garethp]

Just thought I'd update this, I didn't find anything majorly wrong before the weather warmed up and the problem went away.

However the last thing I did do was to blast the maf sensor with contact cleaner over the summer and that made the tick over a little bit smoother.

We've had a few frosty mornings recently and it was minus 2 this morning, each time it started as normal and ticked over fine whilst I scraped the ice off and went back in the house to lock up. Last year it would have stopped before I'd got half of the windows cleared.

So Im guessing the maf sensor was dirty, it didn't look bad but what looks like a resistor went from having a black oily coating to being red after cleaning.

Next job is to stop it rotting away but since it's a ford it's probably a battle I won't win

 

[normspanners]

any coating of any kind on the resistor will give false readings it is VERY sensitive, that is how it 'knows' the air flow by gauging its temp, obviously the more draft the cooler it is and the lesser its resistance and vice versa, so a coating of any kind creating insulation alters its 'perception' of air flow.

 

[AndyStobbs]

Actually the airflow is calculated from the current required to keep the film at its temperature. More air is more cooling as Norm says. It's the current required thats measured.