i want to make engish wheel anvils and pullmax dies

[whensparksfly]

i want to make engish wheel anvils and pullmax dies.i dont know what steel to use or how to heat treat them yet anyone on here do this project any help would be great.

 

[keith19]

Just do a forum search for 'English wheels', I'm sure a lot has been posted here over the years. Some guys have made their own, too. Should be an interesting project. Something I've looked at doing, but don't have the workshop space at present.
Here's a link to get started:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=27587

There's some nice anvil sets here, made to fit most standard cast m/cs:
http://www.justinbaker.co.uk/index_files/anvils.htm

 

[hotrodder]

The EN8 mentioned in the Justin Baker link is the min spec i'd use for wheeling machine anvils/top wheels. Details on EN8 (along with lots of other flavours) here... http://www.westyorkssteel.com/carbon-steel/en8/ The Septics like 4140/EN19 and 4340/en24 (both of which'll be under 'alloy steel' in the westyorks link)

Quality/hardening depends a lot on the standards being worked to... wheeling machines are simple things but the devil is in the detail for really high quality results. If the frame has enough flex to allow the relationship bewteen the wheels to move around then pressure settings vary as the work is passed back & forth through the machine. Won't stop the thing from working but will effect results- either slowing things down or resulting in a tiny amount of 'wavyness' with higher pressures. Fix the stiffness and runout of the wheels becomes more important for the same reasons... machine works by thinning the wheeled area a few thou, if the wheels have more than a very few thou runout then again pressure settings vary. If the thing is treated as a precision machine and you're not gonna wheel welded* panels then hardened wheels aren't necessary. It doesn't take much to mark 'em though and marks WILL be transfered to the work- again, won't stop the thing from working and unless you're **** hot and/or doing , say, an ally job that'll be left bare not that big of a deal albeit an annoying one.

Pullmax tooling... depends what the tooling is for and how much it'll be used really. Same flavours as already mentioned and nothing wrong with shaping a chunk of hotrolled mild for one off jobs- someone i know recently made a set of dies for shaping wheelarch details/returns by cutting the profiles out of a convenient sized chunk of plate and welding some 3/4" square to them. No point in using posher flavours of steel and hardening them when they were made for a specific wheelarch profile

* there was someone that used to work at a place i hang out at that loved damaging/marking machines by working welds... chipped the blade of an 8ft guillotine (right in the middle) by triming something he'd MIG welded, marked up one of the origional Ranalah anvil wheels and made a right mess of a set of slip rolls somehow. Doesn't really bother anyone that works there as they work with steel which'll be painted, bugs the crap out of me as i work mostly with ally which won't be painted...

 

[Shox Dr]

HR what are the Justin Baker machines like, would really like the raptor 2000. If nothing else but to look good

 

[hotrodder]

Dunno, i've not used one (most of my time has been spent on a Ranalah, also used a few different Edwards and had a play with a cheapnese one that was a bit [URL=http://www.smileyvault.com/][/URL] after using the 'proper' old ones). I think they're all pretty well regarded, i've looked at the raptor 2000 a few times myself (an ickle machine for home use)... might be the scale that's throwing me but the top wheel looks a little small in relation to the anvil. I'd have thought 5 or maybe even 6" dia would be better (smoother). Not sure about his anvils... the transition between the contacts/'blows' and the relief is very obvious, dunno if that's 'cause all the kit i've experienced was well used or whether it's the way they're machined differently. Might even be done on purpose for the photos to highlight that they're not constant radius Like lathes, any/more wheeling machine(s) is better than none/less

The Raptor 2000 Bluebird project connection... Didn't Backpurge have something to do with that? ETA, yep http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10199&highlight=bluebird

 

[whensparksfly]

hotrodder what do you think of flats on the lower wheels or do you like a radius?
i have a English wheel wheel only one bottom wheel ive have been wondring what to do for years i think the best thing to do is to just buy a proper cast one.just where to buy one for sensible money?

 

[Paul G]

Over the years I seem to remember lots of posts about E Wheels, on this forum and others.
I suspect that most are turned off by either the cost or the amount of work involved.

I see the options as, buy complete (= loads of dosh), make the frame and buy the wheel & anvils (= a bit of time and fair amount of cash), or scratch build the whole caboodle, (= little outlay but loads of time).
Barclay's forced me into option 3. Mine cost me weeks of spare time but came in at under £150, and was worth every hour & penny.


I case hardened the top wheel and the anvils so the tub of compound accounted for £40 of that total, a job lot of bearings from eBay were £25, and the materials were scrounged from whatever scrap bin was available, with a suitable donation to their beer fund.
I did unfortunately have to pay full price for the M22 fine studding & nuts that I used for the adjustment kick wheel. I am of the opinion that fine adjustment is an asset to the design.


My top wheel was made from 6"nb steam pipe (6-5/8"od), two 6" discs of 10mm plate, and 40mm dia bar.
The 40 bar I left long one side so that I could hold it in the 3 jaw so that all machining could be done in one go.
The holes are just to let water in and steam out when quenching.

I don't know what I used for the anvils (en number) other than the chap I bought the offcut from said that the yellow end stuff was the hardest.

The pic shows the top wheel prior to machining and case hardening.

Cheers,
Paul G

 

[whensparksfly]

Paul can you put up pic of you're finished English wheel

 

[outofthefire]

Mine cost me a tenner I generally use it for smoothing out hammer marks rather than using it to shape metal from scratch but it does everything I want it to http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=31566

 

[Paul G]

Paul can you put up pic of you're finished English wheel

Here you go.

Also a pic of the stiffening grove wheels I made to fit the E wheel frame.
I have a jenny but it has a throat of only 170mm. These allow me to get much deeper.

Paul G

 

[hotrodder]

hotrodder what do you think of flats on the lower wheels or do you like a radius?
i have a English wheel wheel only one bottom wheel ive have been wondring what to do for years i think the best thing to do is to just buy a proper cast one.just where to buy one for sensible money?

I prefer anvils with flats/blows... they're a bit easier to use in that the wider contact point is more forgiving with regards to tracking patterns/consistancy. Constant radius anvils shape things faster but it's easier to end up with 'facets' instead of a smooth result as the 'point' contact will highlight wonky/gappy tracking

Origional cast machines + sensible money don't really exist unless you're lucky and/or consider a few grand sensible... The Ranalah i mentioned got sold about a year ago as it's owner aquired an Edwards and preferred it due to it's kick operated pressure adjustment. The Ranalah was very clean with a set of 5 anvils IIRC and was offered to me for £2K, i couldn't justify it and more importantly had nowhere to put it (still kicking myself). I think he got £2.5k without advertising/auctioning it. The Edwards cost him just under £2k but the wheels, more so the anvils (only 3), needed restoring as they were pitted/marred and covered with surface rust. A fabricated machine can be stiffer, it's more a case of the cheapnese ones just being sloppy and flexible which isn't suprising given they can cost less than the materials would to the likes of us

FWIW colour codes of bar stock... http://parkersteel.net/steel/media/pdf/literature/Bright_Steel_Colour_Chart.pdf

Paul, did you go with constant radius anvils or flat contacts?

 

[whensparksfly]

what do you all think of this machine

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/29-HEAVY-..._Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item3ccd1b409b

 

[Paul G]

FWIW colour codes of bar stock... http://parkersteel.net/steel/media/pdf/literature/Bright_Steel_Colour_Chart.pdf

Paul, did you go with constant radius anvils or flat contacts?

Thanks for the chart mate. Now downloaded for future ref.


The first anvil was a spherical bearing with a flat ground on it.
Apart from making marks in the sheet it didn't do a lot.

After much research on the Metalmeet forum I turned a rough mild steel one with twin rads and a flat between. Never looked back.
I then made the (Ahem) EN8 ones that I now use.

Cheers,
Paul G

 

[Paul G]

what do you all think of this machine

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/29-HEAVY-..._Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item3ccd1b409b

IMHO the material used for the frame is not in proportion to the throat.

Mine is no where near as deep, and much heavier box, and I wouldn't want to go much lighter.

As a design precaution I bolted the top wheel in place so I could reduce the throat if needed.
As it turned out it's a design masterstroke (unintentional) as I have on occasions moved it off centre to reach certain parts.

Cheers,
Paul G

 

[whensparksfly]

i know where your coming from i wonder is the anvils good quality?

 

[hotrodder]

It looks like generic cheapnese s***e to me. Can't believe they have the gall to call it heavy duty! The bits that leap out at me are the anvil post which looks very skinny for something with no support/triangulation (Pauls example is box in box and the jib nuts show there's a lot of overlap to minimise slop), the tiny little top wheel* and the pressure adjustment 'wheel' that looks to be nice and sharp and conveniently at shin/knee height.

There's no decent close up pics but a similar thing (smaller frame, less unsupported length on the anvil post but the jackscrew looks to be tiny) here... http://www.stakesys.co.uk/product/sta140_english_wheel/

To put weights into a bit of perspective a Ranalah weighs at least 1/2 a ton and has a smaller throat (about 3 foot IIRC) than the 133kg ebay one

* take the extreme example of both wheels being the same size and a panel that's been roughed/blocked out... instead of tracking over the bumps and dips it's like hitting a wall. A larger top wheel presents a shallower angle so bumps are less noticable. Kinda like how riding an mtb down a flight of stairs/knarly rock strewn single track is a lot easier than it is on a bmx

Cheers Paul. How did the mild steel one hold up or was it replaced with en8 too soon to tell?

Probably old news to anyone here that's also a member of allmetalshaping but a member posted a series of vids following Geoff Moss wheeling a wing section and explaining what he's doing and why... http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVCd1Cd2XDtPqzjKAH49fMw/videos The harp shaped wheel is a Ranalah, the other one is an Edwards by the looks of things

 

[whensparksfly]

I think everything you said is right about that english wheel.I have a english wheel that i made it has a cast top wheel and one lower that i bought.my problem is i dont know should i buy a top and botom wheel kit like this kit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Top-And-B...381?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2578f65c65 or this kit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fj-Edward...461?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2578f29fad and finish my wheel off .Or buy the steel and make the wheel on my lathe.

 

[hotrodder]

Nothing wrong in principle with cast top wheels (almost positive Edwards have a cast one, the scaloped sides certainly don't look machined) as long as you're happy with the surface finish and run out both of which can be fixed. I might be being dense but i can't figure out why the set with a top wheel is cheaper than the set of anvils unless it's because of the Edwards connection? Check out the justin Baker link posted earlier, depending on what combination of wheels you want might be better value. Beyond that it's a case of how valuable is your time? £107 delivered for a low, med and high crown anvils made from en8... is it worth making them? Without a friendly source for some en8 the materials bill could easily be higher than that- parkersteel (granted one of the more expensive sources) want over £200 for a 3m length of 3" en8

The only thing i'd say about the ebay set with a top wheel is that the added weight of a solid top wheel isn't necessarily a good thing... you've got to stop the inertia of that chunk turning at the end of each stroke

 

[Paul G]

Hi Hotrodder,

The mild steel one was rough, a means to an end. It ended up in the scrap bin.
Had I bothered with the finish I see no reason why it would not have been ok for ally.

As for:- quote, "The only thing i'd say about the ebay set with a top wheel is that the added weight of a solid top wheel isn't necessarily a good thing... you've got to stop the inertia of that chunk turning at the end of each stroke." end quote

That's what thumbs are for.



Thought I'd just show a pic of a wheel arch prior to wheeling out the imperfections.

Cheers,
Paul G

 

[hotrodder]

Hi Hotrodder,

The mild steel one was rough, a means to an end. It ended up in the scrap bin.
Had I bothered with the finish I see no reason why it would not have been ok for ally.

Gotcha

"The only thing i'd say about the ebay set with a top wheel is that the added weight of a solid top wheel isn't necessarily a good thing... you've got to stop the inertia of that chunk turning at the end of each stroke." end quote

That's what thumbs are for.

That's a rite of passage i'm glad i've managed to avoid so far [/shudder]