Shipping a 300kg EV Li-ion battery?

[daleyd]

Never been to Sheffield have you?

Wherever you are where you want to get to is always uphill.
When you turn around to go back to where you started from it's uphill again.
Sheffield occupies its own special topographic corner of the spacetime continuum.

I live in Wales which is not noted for its Norfolk like vistas so what you describe is not alien to me…

 

[daleyd]

So then why don't you go and haul that battery for the OP then ?

The main reason being that I’m not a courier

 

[Mark 5]

If they don't have an ADR Certificate, and hire an ADR compliant van with all the appropriate safety equipment, and use an appropriate overpack, then it's a fairly big legal no-no.



To prempt certain "common sense" sentiments that tend to come up regarding this stuff (and not directed at Mark):

1) Sure, if it all goes fine then they would "get away with it"...

2) But, if they had some kind of accident or incident, then they can add a 2 year custodial sentence and an unlimited fine to their list of problems.

3) It's not "just a battery" in any sense that the batteries we deal with every day are. A 24kWh battery has stored energy equivalent to ~20kg of TNT, and the energy released by complete thermal runaway could equal upto another 4kg of TNT...

4) TNT is a good comparator, as it's the immediacy of the energy release especially in terms of electrical discharge that's the problem much like with explosions... Neither TNT or Lithium Batteries are anywhere near as energy dense as petrol or diesel, but those burn slowly in an accident rather than releasing all their energy at once.

Thanks Jelly.

Safety concerns to one side for a moment.

So there are legal implications in a DIY transport and compliance.

Technically however some one could transport an EV battery in the back of a van or a pickup?
Wow! TNT comparator, I hadn't realised.

 

[sg66]

@sg66 , do you have any contact details or links to them?

I knew you would ask, I had a quick look but can't see the one I watched but Google fetches a few up, https://thevehicleworkshop.com/ev-workshop/

The above have similar vid on YouTube but there are a few places that repair them, will have a proper look later tonight see if I can find the one I watched

 

[fizzy]

Never been to Sheffield have you?

Wherever you are where you want to get to is always uphill.
When you turn around to go back to where you started from it's uphill again.
Sheffield occupies its own special topographic corner of the spacetime continuum.

Swansea the same. You notice it more if you are a cyclist.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Technically however some one could transport an EV battery in the back of a van or a pickup?

It's physically possible, but as previously mentioned they can be remarkably mechanically fragile when removed from the vehicle.

That has implications for it still working as expected when it reaches the other end as well as for safety.

If someone buys a battery then breaks it in transit, they've spent a lot of money and time to give themself a (very) expensive to dispose of problem.

Wow! TNT comparator, I hadn't realised.

It's worthy of note that TNT isn't very energetic, it's "just" the all at once delivery of that energy that gives the scary effects!

A gallon of diesel is energetically the same as 36 kilos of TNT, but you have to do something
phenomenally stupid before an entire gallon of diesel will accidentally burn in a few milliseconds.

This safety aspect is also one of the things holding Hydrogen vehicles back (which if the engineering challenges can be overcome would offer the best of both worlds between ICE and EV in a lot of ways)

A vehicle with a compressed or liquid hydrogen tank could carry weight for weight 25 times as much energy as a battery vehicle, or 3 times as much as a diesel...

It's just that in an accident that fuel could all be released very rapidly, then with a UEL of 75% ignite into a huge explosion.

So manufacturers have had to put a lot of effort into developing storage systems that won't allow that immediate loss of containment (not unlike the way acetylene is stored in acetone soaked fibreglass inside the cylinder), and/or are ridiculously over-built to account for even the worst possible accident scenarios.

Which have been (thus far) quite heavy and space inefficient, for instance when full the H2 tank in a Toyota Mirai is 5% Fuel and 95% Tank!

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Never been to Sheffield have you?

Wherever you are where you want to get to is always uphill.
When you turn around to go back to where you started from it's uphill again.
Sheffield occupies its own special topographic corner of the spacetime continuum.

I don't know what you're on about...

Sheffield is a completely normal city which has unfairly gained a silly reputation due to moaning by Flatlanders from Rotherham and Donny who were born without proper leg muscles.

 

[Mark 5]

It's physically possible, but as previously mentioned they can be remarkably mechanically fragile when removed from the vehicle.

That has implications for it still working as expected when it reaches the other end as well as for safety.

If someone buys a battery then breaks it in transit, they've spent a lot of money and time to give themself a (very) expensive to dispose of problem.


It's worthy of note that TNT isn't very energetic, it's "just" the all at once delivery of that energy that gives the scary effects!

A gallon of diesel is energetically the same as 36 kilos of TNT, but you have to do something
phenomenally stupid before an entire gallon of diesel will accidentally burn in a few milliseconds.

This safety aspect is also one of the things holding Hydrogen vehicles back (which if the engineering challenges can be overcome would offer the best of both worlds between ICE and EV in a lot of ways)

A vehicle with a compressed or liquid hydrogen tank could carry weight for weight 25 times as much energy as a battery vehicle, or 3 times as much as a diesel...

It's just that in an accident that fuel could all be released very rapidly, then with a UEL of 75% ignite into a huge explosion.

So manufacturers have had to put a lot of effort into developing storage systems that won't allow that immediate loss of containment (not unlike the way acetylene is stored in acetone soaked fibreglass inside the cylinder), and/or are ridiculously over-built to account for even the worst possible accident scenarios.

Which have been (thus far) quite heavy and space inefficient, for instance when full the H2 tank in a Toyota Mirai is 5% Fuel and 95% Tank!

Great post and informative, thanks.

 

[DAPPH]

the cost of owning an ev is expensive for a pile of scrap 10 years later ( the shell of the car )

you wont be able to afford an ev so public transport is all that will be left

what jobs as most are being funneled abroad

as goes for built for the future bradford just had an opertunity to do so by bringing back the old tramline system as we still have the old lines in the ground and also the lamposts there still there in most areas
no future of this has been planned when it should have been
cars have been excluded from the town center whilst the shoppers are forced to walk further away from the public transport

to me battery isnt good enough yet no matter what they want to say
so what they will do is equal petrol and diesel to the cost of buying an ev
ev charging will be vat added and taxed as someone has to pay for the stuff that is missing from the petrol and diesel market

OI! My wife's Outlander PHEV is 10 yrs old come April we have had it from new .
The battery was warranteed for 15 years to 80% . It's still producing 93 % .
Don't you think they will have done some serious testing before they put that into print ..
They'd be sued for billions of they wee proven to have lied surely .

Your alarmist comments are really absurd ,you need to do a lot of sensible research and not rely on MSM alarmist items or faceache chatterist's etc. who have little or zero knowledge of EV's and a lot of other things in life .

Don't believe me follow the money trail of the detractors who are usually found to have vested interests in fossil fuel gear .

 

[DAPPH]

Pick up a female hitch hiker, oh look there’s a lay-by. Will you, won’t you? …….. no? ……Whoosh

These days it has to be a non binary pick up and you have to take pot luck apparently

 

[DAPPH]

I live in Wales which is not noted for its Norfolk like vistas so what you describe is not alien to me…

Agreed having resided in both places the ethnic inhabitants appear to have a surfeit of fingers & toes , cross eyes & buck teeth like most of those originating from Norfolk.

 

[Ubique]

To be fair, vehicle warranties - whether for BEV or ICE vehicles are purely an exercise in underwriting risk. The manufacturer will purchase insurance within the bounds of the performance of the battery, the insurer will balance the costs against the likelihood of defect and charge the vehicle manufacturer a premium per vehicle. The same goes for other major components in either vehicle type, the warranty is nothing to do with testing or 'bigging up' their products, it's about providing reassurance to the buyer when components fail - and they will fail, whatever they are, the scale of production means that there will always be early-life failures, whatever it is.

 

[DAPPH]

It's physically possible, but as previously mentioned they can be remarkably mechanically fragile when removed from the vehicle.

That has implications for it still working as expected when it reaches the other end as well as for safety.

If someone buys a battery then breaks it in transit, they've spent a lot of money and time to give themself a (very) expensive to dispose of problem.


It's worthy of note that TNT isn't very energetic, it's "just" the all at once delivery of that energy that gives the scary effects!

A gallon of diesel is energetically the same as 36 kilos of TNT, but you have to do something
phenomenally stupid before an entire gallon of diesel will accidentally burn in a few milliseconds.

This safety aspect is also one of the things holding Hydrogen vehicles back (which if the engineering challenges can be overcome would offer the best of both worlds between ICE and EV in a lot of ways)

A vehicle with a compressed or liquid hydrogen tank could carry weight for weight 25 times as much energy as a battery vehicle, or 3 times as much as a diesel...

It's just that in an accident that fuel could all be released very rapidly, then with a UEL of 75% ignite into a huge explosion.

So manufacturers have had to put a lot of effort into developing storage systems that won't allow that immediate loss of containment (not unlike the way acetylene is stored in acetone soaked fibreglass inside the cylinder), and/or are ridiculously over-built to account for even the worst possible accident scenarios.

Which have been (thus far) quite heavy and space inefficient, for instance when full the H2 tank in a Toyota Mirai is 5% Fuel and 95% Tank!

Offer the local fire brigade the battery for practicing at putting them out using the latest methods

 

[gaz1]

OI! My wife's Outlander PHEV is 10 yrs old come April we have had it from new .
The battery was warranteed for 15 years to 80% . It's still producing 93 % .
Don't you think they will have done some serious testing before they put that into print ..
They'd be sued for billions of they wee proven to have lied surely .

Your alarmist comments are really absurd ,you need to do a lot of sensible research and not rely on MSM alarmist items or faceache chatterist's etc. who have little or zero knowledge of EV's and a lot of other things in life .

Don't believe me follow the money trail of the detractors who are usually found to have vested interests in fossil fuel gear .

thats not what google is saying about that model of vehicle

as goes for warranty period i hope it lasts for you as goes fro sueing the company good luck on that one they always squirm out of warrantys rather well

as goes for testing i can say dont talk a load of crap lithium batterys are way too new to even state they have tested them blah blah blah on them, the only battery that is tried and tested is the lead acid battery

 

[eddie49]

The Lithium-Ion battery was invented by Akira Yoshina in 1985, and first sold commercially by Sony in 1991.

 

[DAPPH]

thats not what google is saying about that model of vehicle

as goes for warranty period i hope it lasts for you as goes fro sueing the company good luck on that one they always squirm out of warrantys rather well

As goes for testing i can say dont talk a load of crap lithium batterys are way too new to even state they have tested them blah blah blah on them, the only battery that is tried and tested is the lead acid battery

Ahh Google the font of all human knowledge , nearly as good as Wikki


I got involved in Engine design & testing ....... it's very complex .

Similarly , the batteries will have been batch tested by the hundred in several different test companies & the testing will have seen them put through thousands of different charging cycles in a continuous cyclic programme where e all manner of micros changes are noted and sorted as well as heavy & light loading & full discharges before they were decided to be used by Mitsubishi in their vehicles.

Re suing .. have you not heard of mass class action against companies who tell lies ???

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

as goes for testing i can say dont talk a load of crap lithium batterys are way too new to even state they have tested them blah blah blah on them, the only battery that is tried and tested is the lead acid battery

You realise that at this point the Lithium Battery is 45 years old, and the Lithium-Ion Battery is 34 years old, right?

Neither battery chemistry is remotely new or untested technology.

The only thing that's novel about the battery cells used for EV's is the massive economies of scale as companies have ramped up production, making them cheap enough for EV's to be a viable product.

Notably on the point of "cheapness" the handful of manufacturers who have vertically integrated battery manufacturing into their EV production can now match or beat the profit margins of ICE vehicles...

But it's a reasonable prediction those companies are not going to drop their EV prices until existing players catch up and they're forced to by competition.

 

[DAPPH]

You realise that at this point the Lithium Battery is 45 years old, and the Lithium-Ion Battery is 34 years old, right?

Neither battery chemistry is remotely new or untested technology.

The only thing that's novel about the battery cells used for EV's is the massive economies of scale as companies have ramped up production, making them cheap enough for EV's to be a viable product.

Notably on the point of "cheapness" the handful of manufacturers who have vertically integrated battery manufacturing into their EV production can now match or beat the profit margins of ICE vehicles...

But it's a reasonable prediction those companies are not going to drop their EV prices until existing players catch up and they're forced to by competition.

Massive cheap Chinese & other low cost country imports of EV's might just make other EU based manufactures readjust their vision of money grabbing even if tariffs are added , seeing that they are all ( ???? ) foreign owned & not just a British thing .
Isn't VW thinking of shifting EV production to China ??

 

[Ubique]

One of the problems we experience with EV batteries is the heating / cooling circuits being breached by corrosion, (the traction motors have their own special weaknesses around the electric / coolant interfaces, as do the HV 'immersion heaters') Once the coolant leaks into the pack, they are no longer able to be issued a 'safe to transport' certification - but are able to be transported with multiple levels of failsafe packaging. At least one vehicle manufacturer deals with this 'contaminated waste' by encasing in concrete and storing underground, to quote their training documentation 'until recovery methods are developed and tested' or as I prefer to think of it, until hell freezes over or the storage facility is costing too much to maintain....

 

[DAPPH]

One of the problems we experience with EV batteries is the heating / cooling circuits being breached by corrosion, (the traction motors have their own special weaknesses around the electric / coolant interfaces, as do the HV 'immersion heaters') Once the coolant leaks into the pack, they are no longer able to be issued a 'safe to transport' certification - but are able to be transported with multiple levels of failsafe packaging. At least one vehicle manufacturer deals with this 'contaminated waste' by encasing in concrete and storing underground, to quote their training documentation 'until recovery methods are developed and tested' or as I prefer to think of it, until hell freezes over or the storage facility is costing too much to maintain....

What sort of age are these faulty batteries , have these companies come up with solutions to incorporate in their latest iterations ?
I am please to read that the latest forms of research are now producing viable results in weeks all over the globe , releasing new stuff every days where as 10 yrs ago it took 15 years to R& D things , 30 years they were thinking of 70 or more years . 200 years ago it was slower than the post office