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Wasn't KERR's originally designed to use only on armoured vehicles with the hatches closed? then they became popular with the offroad mob.
- Thread starter rcx132
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Jelly_Sheffield
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
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They were developed by Marlow Ropes for the MoD to fulfil a requirement for:
"rapid recovery without the aid of specialist equipment"
The range they developed was intended to cover everything from Landrover Lightweights, up to Chieftain Tanks.
I strongly suspect they were envisioning them being used in situations where being stuck was in itself very dangerous, so if the product had some hazards if improperly used, it would still balance out as a net positive.
Your average Greenlaner doesn't need to worry about being a sitting duck for the Red Army teeming through the Fulda Gap when they get stuck (at least not yet), so there's a different balance to strike in terms of risk vs. convenience when choosing to use them as a recreational off-roader.
That said, if you're in a remote part of the Sahara, (rather than on a muddy track somewhere in Somerset) repeatedly getting bogged down is actually a major risk in and of itself.
Is there a standard for determining winch specifications.
If the gear ratio of any given winch is increased. it will be able to pull more, but do it more slowly. This is easily seen here:
| Layer Rated | Line pull (lb) | Line Pull (kg) | Total Rope On Drum (ft/m) |
| 1 | 20,000 | 9,091 | 15.62/4.76 |
| 2 | 15,725 | 7,132 | 35.43/10.8 |
| 3 | 12,956 | 5,877 | 59.55/18.15 |
| 4 | 11,016 | 5,336 | 85.30/26 |
As the number of cable layers increases, the effective gear ratio decreases and the line pull decreases.
This winch has a gear reduction ratio of 544:1. If that were increased (to say, 600:1), the pull would increase and the time taken to move the load a certain distance would increase.
So, changing gear ratios can increase pull to the determent of time taken. What is the winch specification standard?
Jack
(Example winch used: https://www.winchmax.co.uk/product/wm2000012v/)
Jelly_Sheffield
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There's the snappily named:
"BS EN 14492-1:2006+A1:2009 Cranes, power driven winches and hoists - Power driven winches"
Or from our American cousins:
"ASME B30.7-2016 - Winches"
More generally the requirements of the "Machinery Directive 2006/42/EC" as codified in the "Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008" will also apply whenever a winch is supplied for any purpose other than fitment to a Transport Vehicle, or for certain types of fitment on an Agricultural or Forest Tractor.
In which case, manufacturers/importers should be able to supply a "Technical File" where they give the basis and justification for all design calculations and performance specifications.
I suspect as most winches supplied other than as Cranes and Hoists are for pulling purposes, are supplied explicitly for a purpose covered by one of the two exemptions from the Machinery Regs, and judged exempt from LOLER by HSE, there's not a lot of serious standards driven compliance beyond "not actively dangerous" at the consumer end of the market.
rcx132
Philip
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We're using different definitions, my definition of a lower gear, is a slower, more powerful gear, like first gear in a car.
Superwinch 4500lb has 1.8HP motor and 1:198 ratio
Winchmax 5000lb has 1.5HP motor and 1:166 ratio, so should have lower pull, but claims higher.
(I'm mainly looking at ATV winches for now due to low weight of my buggy)
Tinbasherdan
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Got to say, don’t discount the Chinese stuff. I’ve got a rhino 20,000lb winch. I’m sure it’s waaaay overrated but it seems solidly built, the only thing that lets it down is the drive coupling which I’m halfway through remaking from billet. Internals look no worse made than the warning had years ago.
If I was spending money on a winch I’d be buying a superwinch husky, had one years ago, absolutely brilliant tools, if a little slow.
Did build a hydraulic superwinch h14, a massively overbuilt commercial winch but for reasons dealt with elsewhere on here I ended up losing the ability to run a PTO
If I was spending money on a winch I’d be buying a superwinch husky, had one years ago, absolutely brilliant tools, if a little slow.
Did build a hydraulic superwinch h14, a massively overbuilt commercial winch but for reasons dealt with elsewhere on here I ended up losing the ability to run a PTO
winchman
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In my experience The Warn 8274 is a very reliable winch but the build quality is shocking, only one proper bearing, loads of mods available to improve them though.
One thing people miss is the duty cycle of most electric winches is low, remember proper winches are Hydraulic as they can run all day but it all depends on what you want, need and can afford.
If I was buying I would buy Comeup. Good UK importer who has been importing these for years, remember of you buy one from Ebay etc to may not be a uk spec winch, yes they are different.
www.winchsystems.co.uk
One thing people miss is the duty cycle of most electric winches is low, remember proper winches are Hydraulic as they can run all day but it all depends on what you want, need and can afford.
If I was buying I would buy Comeup. Good UK importer who has been importing these for years, remember of you buy one from Ebay etc to may not be a uk spec winch, yes they are different.
Home | Winches, Hoists, Capstans | Winch Systems
Winch Systems; we Supply, Repair, Service, Test and Provide parts for Winches, Hoists and Capstans. The UK distributor for COMEUP winches. Winch Masters
www.winchsystems.co.uk
winchman
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I would used a refurbished older one well if you can find bits ( Iskara make great bigger motors) New I would used Comeup
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In my experience The Warn 8274 is a very reliable winch but the build quality is shocking, only one proper bearing, loads of mods available to improve them though.
One thing people miss is the duty cycle of most electric winches is low, remember proper winches are Hydraulic as they can run all day but it all depends on what you want, need and can afford.
If I was buying I would buy Comeup. Good UK importer who has been importing these for years, remember of you buy one from Ebay etc to may not be a uk spec winch, yes they are different.
Home | Winches, Hoists, Capstans | Winch Systems
Winch Systems; we Supply, Repair, Service, Test and Provide parts for Winches, Hoists and Capstans. The UK distributor for COMEUP winches. Winch Masters
I think it was the Warn 8274 Land Rover used to fit on their Camel trophy vehicles? a few of the guys doing rally recovery had them fitted too.
winchman
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Thats correct, Once had a chap wanting his Warn 8274 built to Camel Trophy spec, he was bitterly disappointed when I told him its an extra £10 as we just fill every gap with silicone as thats what was done! ( He thought it was some magic box of expensive bits) Seen a few pressurised ones since which i feel is a better solution with out changing it for a better winch.
Ubique
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I wouldn't ever use a KERR to recover customers or 'unknowns' - I have, safely with the drivers of both vehicles competent & trained, but there's just too much to go wrong. I always used custom recovery ropes from 'Lifting & Crane' with tested & certified hooks and splices, the ropes have 5% stretch and were used in a similar method to the KERR, take up the strain, apply some pull, drive the stuck vehicle, repeat as required. In general, where the driver had just sunk into some soft stuff and not spun the wheels, a quick pull backwards was enough to free them.
I'd generally agree about tyres, the best I found at the time were Pirelli ATR's, a road-tyre like tread, which when aired down would travel over the sand, not dig in - and with a decent sidewall. There was a guy that turned up with Kumho 'ASBO' tyres, full mud-terrain block tyres, he had a hell of a time, both on & off road... To his credit, he turned up on another trip with some road tyres and had a much better time of it! Punctures were mainly sharp rocks or spikey sand-coloured tufts of the sharpest things you can imagine. There are some very old Michelin (IIRC) design tyres, only available in North & black Africa that are the best sand tyres ever, I think the biggest rim size is 16", you'd swear they were runflats, the sidewalls are thicker than a Whale's Foreskin!
Tyre repairs were all part of the fun round the evening campfire....
And yes, that is a patch through a patch... two punctures in two days - same spot!
Tinbasherdan
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I wouldn’t use a KERR either unless I knew the truck and knew the recovery points. If you shop around there’s some lovely videos of recovery points coming through the back window and splashing someone’s head all over the screen………
Always get the “experts” though, often easily identifiable by a pair of soldier 95 camo trousers and at least one form of hi viz. we were winching a mates kraz out of a bomb hole with a mk3 militant a couple months ago and attracted the attention of an instant expert. He couldn’t grasp that I wasn’t pulling the winch cable on freespool, we were running it off under power and I was keeping enough tension to allow it to pay off the drum rather than form a loop under the belly, then we were stood in the wrong place, then we were pulling it wrong. Strangely the driver of the milli was an ex Reme reccy mech, I’ve been around recovery since I was in short pants, other mate is a recovery operator……. But we were all wrong
Always get the “experts” though, often easily identifiable by a pair of soldier 95 camo trousers and at least one form of hi viz. we were winching a mates kraz out of a bomb hole with a mk3 militant a couple months ago and attracted the attention of an instant expert. He couldn’t grasp that I wasn’t pulling the winch cable on freespool, we were running it off under power and I was keeping enough tension to allow it to pay off the drum rather than form a loop under the belly, then we were stood in the wrong place, then we were pulling it wrong. Strangely the driver of the milli was an ex Reme reccy mech, I’ve been around recovery since I was in short pants, other mate is a recovery operator……. But we were all wrong
