Why would a 150 amp winch come with a 100 amp circuit breaker?

[Ubique]

Hydraulic winches are great - if you can match a suitable pump to the engine, or have enough spare electric to run an electric pump. The critical bit is proportional control, solenoid valves are 'all or nothing' so not any better than an electric winch in that respect, hand operated valves, well, you get what you pay for - watch an early JCB in action compared to the latest version - the older valve engineering gives the operator much more granular control. I've used both electric & hydraulic winches on recovery trucks, hydraulic gives you much more 'feel' and control, with an electric winch, I'd always rig for a pulley block if control is needed over speed (which it almost always is). Hydraulic winches are generally better built but also take up more space and require more thought due to hose bend radius - but don't suffer as much with loss of pulling power as the layers build on the drum.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Hydraulic winches are great - if you can match a suitable pump to the engine, or have enough spare electric to run an electric pump. The critical bit is proportional control, solenoid valves are 'all or nothing' so not any better than an electric winch in that respect, hand operated valves, well, you get what you pay for - watch an early JCB in action compared to the latest version - the older valve engineering gives the operator much more granular control. I've used both electric & hydraulic winches on recovery trucks, hydraulic gives you much more 'feel' and control, with an electric winch, I'd always rig for a pulley block if control is needed over speed (which it almost always is). Hydraulic winches are generally better built but also take up more space and require more thought due to hose bend radius - but don't suffer as much with loss of pulling power as the layers build on the drum.

Thanks, it sounds like hydraulic with proportional valves probably is what I want really.

Matching the PTO output to a suitable pump shouldn't be hard (assuming the chap I met who is selling about 5 different OEM ones doesn't have a run on them before I get round to it).

Solenoid operated proportional control valves (for remote control) look suitably pricy...

But it's clearly a case of either putting direct control levers in a suitable place that doesn't create too much compromise or stumping up the cash...

It did initially occur to use a manual screw-down Flow Control Valve, but I quickly realised that just allows me to set the speed, but wouldn't give the fine control over bringing the winch on-load, or begining to lower off with a tensioned line.

 

[Robotstar5]

Hydraulic winches are great - if you can match a suitable pump to the engine, or have enough spare electric to run an electric pump. The critical bit is proportional control, solenoid valves are 'all or nothing' so not any better than an electric winch in that respect, hand operated valves, well, you get what you pay for - watch an early JCB in action compared to the latest version - the older valve engineering gives the operator much more granular control. I've used both electric & hydraulic winches on recovery trucks, hydraulic gives you much more 'feel' and control, with an electric winch, I'd always rig for a pulley block if control is needed over speed (which it almost always is). Hydraulic winches are generally better built but also take up more space and require more thought due to hose bend radius - but don't suffer as much with loss of pulling power as the layers build on the drum.

You didn't mention a capstan winch, really fine control on those depending on how much tension you hold on the dead end of the rope.

 

[Ubique]

If you're using a PTO, make sure the pump is of a higher output than you need and the relief valve either vents through a cooler or if integral, the return has a cooler in circuit. The higher capacity is important in the event of the engine 'bogging' under initial load, which can create a pendulum effect without spare overhead, I've also known a bigger / heavier crank pulley to be fitted to help stop the pressure swings.

 

[Ubique]

You didn't mention a capstan winch, really fine control on those depending on how much tension you hold on the dead end of the rope.

View attachment 458126

That's true, I've used them a couple of times and in general Matelots 'just know' how to use them without thinking - but they're less forgiving and require a rope, not a winch wire and therefore are (apparently) a nightmare to get tested & insured for equipment movers.

 

[Robotstar5]

If you're using a PTO, make sure the pump is of a higher output than you need and the relief valve either vents through a cooler or if integral, the return has a cooler in circuit. The higher capacity is important in the event of the engine 'bogging' under initial load, which can create a pendulum effect without spare overhead, I've also known a bigger / heavier crank pulley to be fitted to help stop the pressure swings.

A friend of mine had a beast of a winch driven by a mechanical PTO, somehow the PTO got engaged while he was driving, the cable stalled and something went bang in the gearbox

 

[8ob]

The electric vs hydraulic debate Depends on its use, electric is fine to pull a car out of a ditch but if you need to winch all day it’s got to be hydraulic or direct pto , even the very best of leccy winches need a rest to cool down and a chance for the vehicle to recharge the batteries. Downside of a hydraulic or pto is it’s not going to be any good if you have a dead engine.

Bob

 

[Ubique]

The spool valves should default to bypass when released so 'in theory' the pump would just circulate fluid from tank, to pump, to cooler, back to tank - but of course, the engine speed could be the force multiplier needed to 'go bang'...

 

[Ubique]

The electric vs hydraulic debate Depends on its use, electric is fine to pull a car out of a ditch but if you need to winch all day it’s got to be hydraulic or direct pto , even the very best of leccy winches need a rest to cool down and a chance for the vehicle to recharge the batteries. Downside of a hydraulic or pto is it’s not going to be any good if you have a dead engine.

Bob

True, but you also need to be able to winch out of trouble in 58 seconds before you kill a single 12V battery....
And then there's the whole other issue of what to do about the dead engine, stuck or not.

 

[Robotstar5]

The electric vs hydraulic debate Depends on its use, electric is fine to pull a car out of a ditch but if you need to winch all day it’s got to be hydraulic or direct pto , even the very best of leccy winches need a rest to cool down and a chance for the vehicle to recharge the batteries. Downside of a hydraulic or pto is it’s not going to be any good if you have a dead engine.

Bob

We spent the best part of 5 hours winching this rally car out of a valley, both electric winches, Warn M8000 on my RR and a Ramsey 12000lb on the Lightweight, we could only pull one or two car lengths before jacking and packing the car over the many tree stumps the Forestry Commission had left behind so plenty of time to rest the winches and charge the batteries.

 

[Ubique]

We got two vehicles stuck in sand in Morocco - based upon nothing other than one has to be less stuck than the other, we connected both (Warn) winches together with an extension cable, and pulled both in together.... eventually one moved with much complaining from the steel cables, then we proceeded to recover the other 'ground anchor'.
One of the most unusual recoveries was using a DROPS truck to recover a bogged four wheel drive forks by using the hydraulics to move the demountable bed with a cable attached to the lashing points - much better than paying the duty reccy-mech a couple of slabs...

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

If you're using a PTO, make sure the pump is of a higher output than you need and the relief valve either vents through a cooler or if integral, the return has a cooler in circuit. The higher capacity is important in the event of the engine 'bogging' under initial load, which can create a pendulum effect without spare overhead, I've also known a bigger / heavier crank pulley to be fitted to help stop the pressure swings.

I will bear that in mind, the OEM winch setup came with a pump that's about 50% bigger than needed, which combined with a hand throttle to keep the engine in its ideal torque should keep things "comfortable".

A friend of mine had a beast of a winch driven by a mechanical PTO, somehow the PTO got engaged while he was driving, the cable stalled and something went bang in the gearbox

View attachment 458128

The spool valves should default to bypass when released so 'in theory' the pump would just circulate fluid from tank, to pump, to cooler, back to tank - but of course, the engine speed could be the force multiplier needed to 'go bang'...

It had occured to me to:

a) install a hasp or clip to retain the PTO lever to prevent unintentional engagement by my knees, or a middle seat passenger.

b) Have a 3-way ball/plug valve on the pump outlet that can be manually set to full bypass, so I can keep the vehicle running, whilst isolating the winch from power.

c) that putting a 2-way plug valve on the return circuit mechanically interlocked to the 3-way valve, would also prevent any flow on the winch side effectively adding a "backup" hydrostatic braking mechanism (up the the force required to burst weakest hose or union).

Which could all fit quite neatly on the seat-box, next to the diff-lock control knob.

One of the most unusual recoveries was using a DROPS truck to recover a bogged four wheel drive forks by using the hydraulics to move the demountable bed with a cable attached to the lashing points - much better than paying the duty reccy-mech a couple of slabs...

View attachment 458143

That's a really nice recovery, much safer than trying to pull directly with the Eight-Legger, and from an impressively deep bogging too.

I once got to see the aftermath of someone attempting to recover a similarly bogged down John Deere Tractor on a landfill site.

Unfortunately rather than go get a 360 from the yard, or anything sensible like that, they decided that for expediency, it was best to pull it out using a D9 dozer, and the tow chains used for towing articulated dumpers up the hill in wet weather...

The accounts of exactly what transpired next were all a bit contradictory, but it was clear that someone had a little too much enthusiasm.

Because the front half of the tractor had come unstuck from the back half, and unceremoniously wedged itself under the rippers at some speed (thankfully the rippers stopped anything flying up at the dozer driver).

 

[Ubique]

Here's an electric winch recovery, even without any steep slopes, it still needed a double-line pull with an anchor vehicle after lots of digging.... Most of the time - depending on driver ability / enthusiasm, all that was needed was a tug backwards with a suitably rated recovery rope, I used to run overland trips to North Africa six or eight times a year, the biggest issues were punctures!

 

[rcx132]

Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on hydraulic Vs electric winches?

When I finish rebuilding my Landy, I may well have rationalise vehicles...

Currently have an older 8000lb Superwinch on my Pickup which is used mostly for loading/unloading machine tools on trailers (with a front hitch), if I didn't keep the pickup I would need to replicate that functionality on the landy.

Particularly given I'm moving very heavy, tippy objects, it would be nice to have a winch which can lower off smoothly under power, which many of the electric winches don't.

Apologies to @rcx132 for the minor thread hijacking.

It's ok I got the info I wanted and this info is usefull. The Superwinch I have is their old model before they got bought out.

I've also noticed that manufacturers lie about pull. Winches with lower HP motors and higher gear ratios claiming bigger pull than their competitors. This is a physical impossibility right?

The winch I have is an atv winch left from an old project. My buggy is estimated at 800kg so it might work with a snatch block.

 

[rcx132]

Edit: useful not useless info, sorry, typo!

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Most of the time - depending on driver ability / enthusiasm, all that was needed was a tug backwards with a suitably rated recovery rope

Oh yeah, a proper KERR, used correctly, by a competent driver, on a not excessively stuck vehicle, is like magic...

used to run overland trips to North Africa six or eight times a year, the biggest issues were punctures!

Oh Fun! Rocks, Bushes, Overheated Tyres or all of the above?

My Algerian colleague who lives way down south swears by 9.00r16 extra thick crossply tyres with just grooves, and effectively no tread on them from a weird chinese brand.

They do nothing for the handling of his vehicle on the highway and look like the unfortunate lovechild of an aircraft tyre and a trailer tyre, but float over sand fantastically, and have very beefy sidewalls.

 

[Robotstar5]

Oh yeah, a proper KERR, used correctly, by a competent driver, on a not excessively stuck vehicle, is like magic...

I saw the results of improper use of a KERR on an AWDC event, Range Rover trying to pull out a stuck Jeep, the Jeep had a front towhitch which ripped off and went through the back window of the Range Rover and removed the passenger headrest, luckily there was no passenger in it.

 

[rcx132]

I saw the results of improper use of a KERR on an AWDC event, Range Rover trying to pull out a stuck Jeep, the Jeep had a front towhitch which ripped off and went through the back window of the Range Rover and removed the passenger headrest, luckily there was no passenger in it.

So basically the tow hitch was on a home made badly designed or badly made tow bar?

 

[123hotchef]

one should never make a snatch recovery on a tow ball

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

one should never make a snatch recovery on a tow ball

I was always taught the only acceptable connection was

"using a shackle attaching to a dedicated recovery point that you'd bet your life on being properly attached to the chassis..."

[Tutor's original emphasis was rather more shouty in nature]