Energy prices.

[Kayos]

As always with these threads, some great passion but a lot of misunderstanding and cherry picked quotes.

Fantastic explanation of the changes to nuclear by @not done it yet

We need a cheap, reliable and safe nuclear baseload, sadly none of the existing or planned plants are are all 3

Storage is not the answer, but it is a part of the solution. I'm not suggesting it would ever be necessary or practical to store up enough electricity for a night of use but we need a buffer as nuclear is difficult to ramp up or down and non ideal renewables may have to be brought online

 

[Kayos]

@fizzy

Why is electric expensive?

Tory party sell off and expecting a market to do anything other than pay shareholders

Nationalising is not the answer but govt investment is needed, energy, food and housing are basic human needs, all 3 are controlled by greed

 

[Gareth J]

For home users solar is a good idea with leccy prices at 30p kw/h. Commercial farms just make my blood boil though. To compete with gas they would need to be able to generate at less than 10p per kw/h at the moment which will never happen - when Putin pops his clogs gas will be down to 4p per kw/h again which shows just how expensive solar farms really are.

Why do you think solar is as expensive as you do? The last lot I put up should have a lifetime cost of generation at well below 5p/kWh. If commercial companies are doing it and it costs them 10p/unit, that seems very odd.

 

[fizzy]

As always with these threads, some great passion but a lot of misunderstanding and cherry picked quotes.

Fantastic explanation of the changes to nuclear by @not done it yet

We need a cheap, reliable and safe nuclear baseload, sadly none of the existing or planned plants are are all 3

Storage is not the answer, but it is a part of the solution. I'm not suggesting it would ever be necessary or practical to store up enough electricity for a night of use but we need a buffer as nuclear is difficult to ramp up or down and non ideal renewables may have to be brought online

Kayos
The problem is we can literally go a week or even 10 days in Winter when an area of high pressure sits over the UK and most of Europe. Wind drops to almost nothing and it is very cold. There is NO way to store that much power so where does the electricity come from? Gas obviously. And the price is through the roof. Several gas power stations have gone bust because the government expect them to survive on no income whilst the wind is blowing and yet jump into action only when needed.

Baglan Energy Park: Ministers lose bid to stop power cut

Firms at Baglan Energy Park, including a paper mill, face losing electricity supplies as a result.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[fizzy]

Why do you think solar is as expensive as you do? The last lot I put up should have a lifetime cost of generation at well below 5p/kWh. If commercial companies are doing it and it costs them 10p/unit, that seems very odd.

How much do you think they generate in December? At night?
Britain has more solar farms than Spain and Portugal put together. And yet Britain is so far North it is one of the worst countries in the World for solar.
solar farms in the UK are earning silly money to provide low CO2 credits for big companies like Amazon etc so they can pretend they are Carbon Neutral.

 

[Kayos]

Kayos
The problem is we can literally go a week or even 10 days in Winter when an area of high pressure sits over the UK and most of Europe. Wind drops to almost nothing and it is very cold. There is NO way to store that much power so where does the electricity come from? Gas obviously. And the price is through the roof. Several gas power stations have gone bust because the government expect them to survive on no income whilst the wind is blowing and yet jump into action only when needed.

Baglan Energy Park: Ministers lose bid to stop power cut

Firms at Baglan Energy Park, including a paper mill, face losing electricity supplies as a result.

www.bbc.co.uk

But wind is not the only renewable, and I agree on the size of storage. Plus again look at Dogger Bank, it's never dropped off completely

We will keep open cycle gas turbines on standby for emergency use, as nuclear cannot ramp up either

You may not be scared of nuclear, neither am I but I understand the risks, again a risk averse and short sighted govt (of whatever colour) has shoved it all onto the private sector, making the new nuclear power the most expensive it has ever been

 

[Kayos]

How much do you think they generate in December? At night?
Britain has more solar farms than Spain and Portugal put together. And yet Britain is so far North it is one of the worst countries in the World for solar.
solar farms in the UK are earning silly money to provide low CO2 credits for big companies like Amazon etc so they can pretend they are Carbon Neutral.

At night is a stupid argument

I'd share the files I have on winter generation but I don't want to lose my job to prove a point, but the answer is enough to justify them being there or they wouldn't be

I will ask again, even though you will ignore it, what are YOU, the director of a highly Co2 producing company doing to reduce your global warming potential?

 

[fizzy]

At night is a stupid argument

I'd share the files I have on winter generation but I don't want to lose my job to prove a point, but the answer is enough to justify them being there or they wouldn't be

I will ask again, even though you will ignore it, what are YOU, the director of a highly Co2 producing company doing to reduce your global warming potential?

Ignore it??? I didn't realise you asked before - perhaps I missed it.

We ship pallets - 26 fit on a lorry. 52 on a double deck trailer.
Lorries never move empty.
If someone buys an engine on Ebay from say Leeds and wants to ship it back to Southampton which do you think will use less fuel? Driving an empty van from Southampton up to Leeds and then coming back with just 1 pallet or a local depot collecting from Leeds and trunking along with 51 other pallets to a local depot in Southampton?
So in fact we are saving a lot of CO2 output.

On a personal level I burn scrap pallet wood to keep my house warm. I have changed about 40 GU10s for LED bulbs in my house. And I run my old Disco on used cooking oil

Am I doing it to save the planet? Not really - I just don't like wasting money - which funnily enough amounts to pretty much the same thing

 

[Gareth J]

How much do you think they generate in December? At night?
Britain has more solar farms than Spain and Portugal put together. And yet Britain is so far North it is one of the worst countries in the World for solar.
solar farms in the UK are earning silly money to provide low CO2 credits for big companies like Amazon etc so they can pretend they are Carbon Neutral.

Eh?

I was asking specifically why you think solar costs 10p/kWh. It probably costs close to that if you're getting a company in to put panels in a tiled roof, but as you've noticed, even at that price, that's competitive for homeowners. But at a commercial scale? Surely you don't really believe commercial solar costs as much as that?

BEIS Electricity Generation Costs (2020)

This report presents levelised cost estimates for electricity generation technologies, detailing methodology, data and assumptions.

www.gov.uk

It's closer to 4.5p/kWh. A DIY home setup can get close to that or even beat it too.

It's ok that solar is cheap. There is still a legitimate argument for nuclear.

 

[fizzy]

Eh?

I was asking specifically why you think solar costs 10p/kWh. It probably costs close to that if you're getting a company in to put panels in a tiled roof, but as you've noticed, even at that price, that's competitive for homeowners. But at a commercial scale? Surely you don't really believe commercial solar costs as much as that?

BEIS Electricity Generation Costs (2020)

This report presents levelised cost estimates for electricity generation technologies, detailing methodology, data and assumptions.

www.gov.uk

It's closer to 4.5p/kWh. A DIY home setup can get close to that or even beat it too.

It's ok that solar is cheap. There is still a legitimate argument for nuclear.

The key word is levelised.
Don't forget the infrastructure costs of these things dotted all over the place. Grid upgrades etc that are needed.
I have looked into installing solar at my Dad's old house in The Algarve. Will take 10 years break even and their weather is in a totally different league to ours.
About 6 years if I do the work myself. But that is based on 20 p per kwh not 5p.

 

[Gareth J]

The key word is levelised.
Don't forget the infrastructure costs of these things dotted all over the place. Grid upgrades etc that are needed.
I have looked into installing solar at my Dad's old house in The Algarve. Will take 10 years break even and their weather is in a totally different league to ours.
About 6 years if I do the work myself. But that is based on 20 p per kwh not 5p.

Figure sounds plausible, 10yrs to pay back and, on a 20yr life, 10yrs of free electric when the sun shines. Or a shorter payback, DIY.

Levellised cost isn't some tricksy manipulation applied to twist figures, it's just the words used to describe all the costs ("cradle to grave") associated with a tech Vs the output it gives.



It really does work out at <5p/kWh. When the sun's shining, nothing is cheaper.

 

[J1nx]

Anyone on Octopus Agile with solar or batteries (well, any export) is doing OK at the moment. Currently 58p/KWh for export and going up at 17:30.

People are even charging off the mains (home battery or electric car) just to feed back at profit…

 

[premmington]

Yes I am a big fan of nuclear power. I did a combined Physics degree many moons ago so I am not terrified of the word nuclear!
Obviously our newer nuclear reactors are imported technology. Not surprising since Gordon Brown sold off Westinghouse and we have invested virtually nothing in nuclear technology for decades! The sooner the Rolls Royce SMRs are up and running the better.
Why is our leccy more expensive than it has ever been? Spending billions on intermittent power generation may have something to do with it.
I would love wind power IF there was a way of storing it. There isn't - not sensibly.

@fizzy come stand behind me - I will protect you when the bullying starts - I too am pro nuclear.

Yes I reservations about safety - but what we are doing with fossil fuels is not "safe either" or good for the planet or peoples health.

 

[Gareth J]

I think most here understand that nuclear has its advantages and is and will be an important part of our energy mix. It's very expensive though, so at times when energy can be harvested cheaply elsewhere, people are going to do that, too.

 

[addjunkie]

I think most here understand that nuclear has its advantages and is and will be an important part of our energy mix. It's very expensive though, so at times when energy can be harvested cheaply elsewhere, people are going to do that, too.

Balance is key as with most things all our eggs should not be thrown into one basket!

 

[julianthegypsy]

I'm buying some Solar PV for the farm, just working out where to stick it and how big. It will be DIY job. I have been using Victron solar chargers/panels on the trailer but think I may be paying for the brand name so will have a look around at panels and controllers while I'm at it.

Victron are very good. I've seen inside others, even name brands like Sterling, and frankly they were shocking.

 

[premmington]

I think most here understand that nuclear has its advantages and is and will be an important part of our energy mix. It's very expensive though, so at times when energy can be harvested cheaply elsewhere, people are going to do that, too.

I am not sure I have made my point clear. I am not articulate - only a fat dumb mechanic.

Nuclear power I see as "containment issue" - accidents have happened - but they have been accidents.

Where burning fossil fuels is no accident - it is preplaned - metered damage to the host planet. We are burning endless tons of fossil fuel and not cutting the rate we burn it.

We/most countries have been to war over "cheap diesel".

Cost... Normal people are gonna be led into energy/transport poverty - this is fact set into stone.

I see the future as the base generation need to be nuclear - with top ups by renewables.

I can't see why other people can't see this?

Yes is gonna cost. I know it is. But what real choice do you have? Not just us - worldwide this is the solution!

No I don't want nuclear power - who would if there was a better option.

But there is not...

(I am pro nuclear as it is the best option of a poor choice!)

 

[daleyd]

I am not sure I have made my point clear. I am not articulate - only a fat dumb mechanic.

Nuclear power I see as "containment issue" - accidents have happened - but they have been accidents.

Where burning fossil fuels is no accident - it is preplaned - metered damage to the host planet. We are burning endless tons of fossil fuel and not cutting the rate we burn it.

We/most countries have been to war over "cheap diesel".

Cost... Normal people are gonna be led into energy/transport poverty - this is fact set into stone.

I see the future as the base generation need to be nuclear - with top ups by renewables.

I can't see why other people can't see this?

Yes is gonna cost. I know it is. But what real choice do you have? Not just us - worldwide this is the solution!

No I don't want nuclear power - who would if there was a better option.

But there is not...

(I am pro nuclear as it is the best option of a poor choice!)

It’s not the accidents that are the problem (though they are obviously a big issue if they do go wrong, but that hopefully is very remote possibility) - there’s the exotic materials required to build reactors and power stations, security, waste that’s hazardous to deal with and remains so for a long time, decommissioning after they are finished, plus the fact that if every country decides to do the same then we are going to run out of easily recoverable uranium quickly.

It’s got a part to play but it’s no silver bullet that’s going to cure all our woes. Of course we need to be looking at getting whatever we can from other renewable sources, and developing storage tech as well - using nuclear fission as a stop gap until we can find “something” better.

 

[premmington]

It’s not the accidents that are the problem (though they are obviously a big issue if they do go wrong, but that hopefully is very remote possibility) - there’s the exotic materials required to build reactors and power stations, security, waste that’s hazardous to deal with and remains so for a long time, decommissioning after they are finished, plus the fact that if every country decides to do the same then we are going to run out of easily recoverable uranium quickly.

It’s got a part to play but it’s no silver bullet that’s going to cure all our woes. Of course we need to be looking at getting whatever we can from other renewable sources, and developing storage tech as well - using nuclear fission as a stop gap until we can find “something” better.

I liked your reply - you are better at wording things than I am...

 

[daleyd]

I liked your reply - you are better at wording things than I am...

I wouldn’t say that - I think you made your point perfectly! I think we have the same viewpoint, it’s a currently necessary evil - but to suggest that we shouldn’t also be investing in renewables and other tech I think is wrong. We need both, and hopefully some breakthrough that means we can move away from fission altogether at some point.