Car based buggy

[TheJoker]

bit like a motor bike you mean ?, or even a 2 seat F1 car dont know about anything that makes the cog higher for a 4 wheel drive that is designed for climbing over things at steep angles, it might work l will give it some thought

Baloo, yeah, exactly like that. How high up you put the passenger is obvioulsy dependent on how much room under their butt you need for diffs and suspension etc. As long as the passenger can see a bit over the drivers head/helmet then that's enough. COG would suffer a bit, but not that much as you can put the two seats quite close to each other.

Side-by-side would mean quite wide and as you say, engine placement can be difficult. Or you could do 2/3 of a McLaren F1 with the passenger slightly sideways almost behind the driver.

Another thought; Does the passenger have to face forward-ish?

Ideas, ideas...

 

[Baloo]

you are right joker the passenger dosent have to face forward they could face the rear with thier feet above the rear diff that way they could operate the video camera and get some cool shots of the vehicle behind

but l am a bit of a traditonalist ( old fart stuck in his ways ) and think if there is 2 seats they shoud be side by side
l have pondered this layout before about 6 months ago when l was contemplating using suzuki solid axles as they were the lightest axles l could find, but l have since decided sierra diffs and a arm suspension is the way to go,

when l was contemplating using suzuki axles l was thinking about using a subaru motor after all it makes a cool noise dosent it , the bog standard 1800cc from the early impretza's and even before that is what l was thinking of using, it main advantage is that being a flat four its very low and l can sit on top of it with out being to high up, in fact it has a lot going for it as all the heavy bits are on the base line like the diff crank etc, should make for a low centre of gravity which would be agood thing for a rock crawler,
the engine l was using to mock up with was a carb model so nice and easy to wire up but l was thinking that a later injection model might be lower in hieght as an injector shouldent be as tall as a carburetta ?, at the moment the passenger will end up with a carb up there jacksy might have to re think that bit , if l did use an injecttion engine l might be able to make my own slim line inlet manifold and have the throttle body sticking up between the seats,
anyway here's some pics from a few months back with the suzuki axles but you get the idea, oh and the rotation is wrong in the pics the seat needs to face the other way to get 5 forward gears and one reverse, but thats cool as it brings it back to a right hand drive

but l would need to use an auto and finding an auto 2wd subaru is no easier than knitting fog

 

[TheJoker]

Very nice, Baloo. I see your reasoning too. I guess you're right with regards to finding a 2WD auto Subaru machine.

911 anyone..?

 

[oseloth]

Hi Baloo, how are. Haven't been on the forum a long time.

I see you are in projects all the time.

When we will be able to see some of them in action.

How's the subaru Justy project going?

Adam

 

[Baloo]

Hi Baloo, how are. Haven't been on the forum a long time.

I see you are in projects all the time.

When we will be able to see some of them in action.

How's the subaru Justy project going?

Adam

hi Adam

yes l have far too many projects l got some great big russian 6 wheel drive trucks ( zil 131 ) as well but we wont go there just now
the justy is parked in the shed for the moment but l will pick it up again soon,
the rock crawler l want to biuld is just happening in my head at the moment,
although l am going to make a jig to biuld the suspension A arms soon,

l am back on the mgf buggy again now l was waiting for the threaded flange l have had made to weld on to the fuel tanks so as l can fit the fuel pump, will have it running soon ish

 

[pedrobedro]

The idea with the Subaru sideways on driving the axles via two driveshafts, wouldn't the differential in the middle need to be locked so it drives both at once ?

 

[Baloo]

The idea with the Subaru sideways on driving the axles via two driveshafts, wouldn't the differential in the middle need to be locked so it drives both at once ?

hi quite right the gear box diff needs to be removed and welded up so as it no longer functions as a diff but mealy splits the drive in both directions, esay and very cheap to do
l am not sure l will use the subaru engine and box despite it fitting the bill nicely, l want to use an auto box really but finding a 2 wd auto subaru is not so easy, they are about but one hasent fallen into my lap yet
there is plenty of 4 wheel drive models about but l dont know enough about the internall workings of a subaru gearbox to know if l can use a 4 wheel drive box and not use the rear output ? l would expect there to be a diff between the front and rear outputs to over come issues with front and rear tyre dia due to wear etc, if there is a diff it will just try and send the power to the rear output as its not connected and the easist to turn, dont know if l could just weld it up and and use it in 2 wd ??
given all the above l might just use the metro engine and box as l have an auto one looking for a new life and its cvt drive to boot, anyway this is still at the thinking stage l need to get the other buggy up and running before l start this one

 

[pedrobedro]

A lot of "soft roaders" have so called intelligent drive which electronically proportions the power to the wheels as and when needed, I think Freelanders use it and new Kias so eventually there will be some good options when these cars start to come down to reasonable levels unless the government has it's way and they are all crushed instead of going for salvage.

 

[Baloo]

A lot of "soft roaders" have so called intelligent drive which electronically proportions the power to the wheels as and when needed, I think Freelanders use it and new Kias so eventually there will be some good options when these cars start to come down to reasonable levels unless the government has it's way and they are all crushed instead of going for salvage.

"electronically proportioned" sounds good and as you say quite a few cars have this sort of technology these days, 2 questions spring to mind, durability and is it better than good old difflocks, would make an intresting disscusion on wether a vehicle that had electronically switched power would be better than say a landrover that had the diffs welded up, in my mind if all the wheels are driving then thats as good a traction as you are going to get, how can you have more than all 4 wheels turning ? but having watched freelanders climb with traction control on they are very good no wheel spinning just a steady climb, so maybe l am missing something and switching the power between the wheels as they require has more benifit than l realise ??
l can see why a manufacturer would fit it in preference to diff locks, its many many times cheaper since you have most of it there already with the antilock brakes and its much safer for the general public who might engage a difflock on a wet road and then find the steerings gone all "funny"
but l still have misgivings about electricity and water, what you havent got wont break springs tp mind,
but it would be intresting to play with it all the same

and where would you mount the ecu to keep it out of the wet on an offroader ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr8eEWyKQHM

 

[Baloo]

wow l had to go back 19 pages to find this thread

an update then, l was weak a pal of mine came to see the buggy when it was nearly finished and whipped out a bundle of cash and offered to buy it, bye bye buggy, dident put to much thought into it just decided the cash looked tempting and l could always biuld another buggy

anyway alan finished the buggy some while back and l have never got round to an update

l have revieved this thread as l am now biulding another to replace this one only road legal this time, again mgf powered but this time the vvc version as it revs higher has more power and a much flater torque curve due to the vvc, but this engine may get switched to a honda vtec depending on time and other constraints

he's a couple of pics of my old one that allan finished off along with a vid of it up at kirton by scunthorpe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnuiRgpla8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWlUnGO0sWM&feature=related

 

[Fergus]

hi quite right the gear box diff needs to be removed and welded up so as it no longer functions as a diff but mealy splits the drive in both directions, esay and very cheap to do
l am not sure l will use the subaru engine and box despite it fitting the bill nicely, l want to use an auto box really but finding a 2 wd auto subaru is not so easy, they are about but one hasent fallen into my lap yet
there is plenty of 4 wheel drive models about but l dont know enough about the internall workings of a subaru gearbox to know if l can use a 4 wheel drive box and not use the rear output ? l would expect there to be a diff between the front and rear outputs to over come issues with front and rear tyre dia due to wear etc, if there is a diff it will just try and send the power to the rear output as its not connected and the easist to turn, dont know if l could just weld it up and and use it in 2 wd ??
given all the above l might just use the metro engine and box as l have an auto one looking for a new life and its cvt drive to boot, anyway this is still at the thinking stage l need to get the other buggy up and running before l start this one

I'm coming in to this one late and I may have got the wrong end of the stick here..... With the early Justy it is possible to remove the front driveshafts pop it into 4wd and hey presto you have a RWD Justy.

 

[Baloo]

I'm coming in to this one late and I may have got the wrong end of the stick here..... With the early Justy it is possible to remove the front driveshafts pop it into 4wd and hey presto you have a RWD Justy.

er yes probabally but the early justy was a 3 cylinder upright engine and what we were after was a very low engine (flat 4) to get it under the seats,
later justy was just a re badge suzuki swift
Andy

 

[stormin]

What's the top speed going to be like? I can't help feeling that running the drive through two sets of differentials reduces the gearing so much it's likely to be slow on top end, probably fantastic acceleration mind.

A friend of mine came up with a similar concept for a comp safari racer using a RS turbo CVH engine but eventually decided it would be lacking in top end speed due to the double diff reduction.

 

[Baloo]

What's the top speed going to be like? I can't help feeling that running the drive through two sets of differentials reduces the gearing so much it's likely to be slow on top end, probably fantastic acceleration mind.

A friend of mine came up with a similar concept for a comp safari racer using a RS turbo CVH engine but eventually decided it would be lacking in top end speed due to the double diff reduction.

hi stormin

yes you are right running through 2 diffs is going to rob you of top speed, but we are talking about specialist applications here such as trialing or rockcrawling where top speed is of no intrest, it would be of no use in comp safari, in theroy it cuts your speed by a factor of 4 since most front wheel drive car diffs are in the order of 4 to 1 however in practice it tends to halve your top speed due to the fact that fornt wheel drive cars have small wheels and tyres about 20" diam and off road you stick at least 30" tyres to get ground clearnce thus reclaiming half your gearing back again
the advantage apart from compact packageing is that 1 st gear is twice as low as it used to be, this rockcrawler will climb up vertical if it can get grip

http://www.youtube.com/user/andyhaycock1#p/u/16/ToMh2p8TqSU

some where there is some vid of it thrashing round the track where it will get up to about 45 mph max

 

[Baloo]

buggy no 2

right things have moved on a bit , l have been and bought a second hand road regestered Blitz 2 buggy, for those that dont know what they are here is a pic l found on the net plus someone elses biuld up that l also found on the net

http://www.blitznortheast.com/my_blitz_build.htm

dam, l cant get the pics where l want them, so much easier with PB

 

[Baloo]

so the one l bought was regestered for the road back in 1996 and has a correct V5 stating the manafacturer as Blitz, it was all in working order just a bit scruffy, motivation was provided by an A seires engine of 1000cc great in there day but times have moved on a wee bit and a more mordern engine would fit the bill better, 2 engines sprang into my mind K seires rover as they are cheap and the vvc version is around 145 bhp, all ally construction makes them nice and light and mgf's can be picked up very cheap indeed as they are starting to rot nicley now,
the other engine that caught my intrest is the honda prelude vtec again can be had cheaply around £400 but the bit l like is the semi automatic gearbox
that would enable me to have paddle shift on the steering wheel oh and the 200 bhp would be usefull too
but the K seires won out ( for now anyway ) since it will drop straight into the metro subframe that is in the back end of the buggy with no modification of the suspension or chassis/frame, going the honda route would entail all new suspension pick up pionts and alterations to the frame and might mean being called in for another sva
best keep it simple me thinks

anyway the blitz was stripped to the frame and sent off for shot blasting
once back l primed it,
now me having long legs and being biult like a bear had a bit of squeeze getting in and having my legs out striaght in front of me so l unbolted the original pedal box and moved it forward 6", great l fit in a treat but the brake and clutch master cylinders now poke up through the bonnet
so l have made my self a new floor mounted pedal box with the master cylinders running forwards instead of up

right lets see if l can attache the pics in the right order

 

[Robotstar5]

What's with the extra brake master cylinder, some sort of biased braking system?

 

[Baloo]

What's with the extra brake master cylinder, some sort of biased braking system?

yes is the short answer

but l should say now that although this buggy is road regestered l doubt l will go to the trouble of taxing and insuring it to use on the road, with the winter approaching a modern car with a heater sounds more appealing,

so everything l do is mainly aimed at offroad before l get told it would be dangerous/illegall on road

l had a honda pilot till recently which has a solid back axle and one of the traits it had was it would push on on the corners and even at low speed on slippy surfaces l couldent get round a corner others with a diff could unless l gave it some beans and brought the back end round which dident always end well when running through the woods with big trees each side of the track
l have an LSD for the back of this buggy and am thinking the same sort of thing will tend to happen when on wet grass/mud, 4 of the other buggies l have been involved with or driven had the same problem and one of the ways round it is to split the braking left and right with seperate pedals so when approaching a left hander you stamp on the left pedal to slow the left rear wheel while standing on the accelerator at the same time to force the outer rear wheel to pick up speed and force you round the corner, the pedals need mounting close together so as you can stand on them both if you want to pull up square, its quite an effective way of steering with the back end

hers a couple of pics of my pals motor bike powered buggy's pedals, 2 pedals and 2 master cylinders the clutch is on the gear lever on that one

and dident one of the mclaren F1 cars have 2 brake pedals to help bias the diff to assit it round the corners, ( til they got caught ) and it was banned as it was considered an advantage ??

 

[Baloo]

just found this which explains it quiet well

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/24/banned-mclarens-rear-brake-pedal/

and one with a pic

http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9541

 

[stuvy]

I was only looking at that other buggy a few days ago, and recognized your user name from difflock the lhd citroen engine buggy and the v twin one above looks great, to help sell your blitz on id keep it road legal buddy