who carries the can on this?

[Kent]

I think the idea is to try and make it look like it's been 'cobbled up' on site rather than fabricated in a workshop, therefore not coming under an FPC.

The point is though as a sub is it not his issue if I do his tests and use his gear as I have no control over the process like a new employee effectively

 

[MattF]

The point is though as a sub is it not his issue if I do his tests and use his gear as I have no control over the process like a new employee effectively

No idea regarding the specifics of the regs, but one thing to remember is that they will drop you in the crap in the blink of an eye if owt goes wrong. It's fine him saying he knows a loophole, he'll take the risk etc., but guaranteed if owt went wrong he'd drop you right in it. Take the safe route, as in reading the regs and sticking to them.

 

[MattF]

I fully understand where you are coming, I am taking the risk and will have to live with the consequences if it all goes wrong, however, that said, the things I weld up are merely to keep the rain off. no one spends any length of time in them and nothing of any great value is kept in them, and I know that's no excuse but its money coming in and keeping the bills at bay. most of the stuff I weld is repairs to existing structures, the stuff I have done from scratch include chicken coops, a pig sty made form galv corrugated steel, and an extension 'porch' onto a barn side door

It only takes one piece to fly off in bad weather and smack someone or something and then you're knee deep.

 

[Shox Dr]

Trying to shirk responsibility by feigning ignorance will get you nowhere, but wishing you had a bigger shovel when the ***** hits the fan.

If you have to look to blame shifting before you have even started the job, then I would be thinking twice about it

 

[clift_d]

You'll probably find that it doesn't matter what you think you've agreed beforehand, if it comes to a claim and a lawyer suspects that you might have your own insurance, then you can be sure that they will try to make you, and your insurers, party to any action. The only way to ensure that his insurance covers you would probably be to become an employee of his for however long the job takes i.e. on his payroll. Anything else, and his insurers will surely have some small print which makes sure subcontractors are not covered.

 

[Sidewinder]

You'll probably find that it doesn't matter what you think you've agreed beforehand, if it comes to a claim and a lawyer suspects that you might have your own insurance, then you can be sure that they will try to make you, and your insurers, party to any action. The only way to ensure that his insurance covers you would probably be to become an employee of his for however long the job takes i.e. on his payroll. Anything else, and his insurers will surely have some small print which makes sure subcontractors are not covered.

Our insurance is quite the opposite, we can use contractors, but, we have to look after them, almost as employees to comply with our insurance, even if they only work for us for an hour!
There is though a limit of so many man hours annually that we can use contractors for.
The detail escapes me now.

 

[Welderpaul]

I thought that MAS had just announced the this would not apply to very small/micro businesses in a last minute U turn?

I'm meeting a MAS rep tomorrow; I'll ask him.
I would imagine it is yet another rumour that a lot of people really want to believe is true. Why should anyone be exempt?

 

[dunk]

Ok, just been offered a substantial amount of work, work I do not want to turn down just having started the Ltd company. Not sure if I can or cannot do this from point of view of EN1090 as its more a case of who carries the can for it.

Situation stands I have been contacted by someone I know who runs an agricultural building contractor and steel framed building firm. Has no EN1090 as he says he has done all the research and there is a loophole of "if its done on the farm". I know that I cannot use that excuse but if I subcontract on labour only it has been suggested I might act under his employ as a subcontractor - hence his liability his risk.

I got this suggestion made by a recently retired Engineer within the power generation service and commissioning side at a very senior level.

1. insist he sets a weld test and passes it off with paperwork and undertakes responsibility for on going QC

2. Do not use own plant or consumables beyond PPE

3. get it all in writing

What do you all think yes or no? I am thinking yes as long as my insurer agrees his trade is my trade and as such my company is under his wing and liability?

What a joke this is, both you and the contractor knowingly know neither of you have EN1090, yet for the sake of some money because you`ve just started a ltd company your prepared to take the risk on the hope the lopehole gets you off if it goes tits up one day, instead of asking " what do you all think yes or no " operate legally and professional
Tell you what, ask a solicitor see what he`s answer is and if he would back you if it goes wrong, not your insurance company or some RETIRED gent

 

[Sidewinder]

I'm meeting a MAS rep tomorrow; I'll ask him.
I would imagine it is yet another rumour that a lot of people really want to believe is true. Why should anyone be exempt?

MAS announced this on their LinkedIn feed.
As I said in my earlier post, I was a little wrong, the news article linked is as follows, again from my earlier post:
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/07/02/u-turn-sees-hand-rail-firms-exempted-from-ce-marks/

I follow MAS on LinkedIn, I don't know why as they don't operate in Wales any more it seems!!!

HTH.

 

[Kent]

What a joke this is, both you and the contractor knowingly know neither of you have EN1090, yet for the sake of some money because you`ve just started a ltd company your prepared to take the risk on the hope the lopehole gets you off if it goes tits up one day, instead of asking " what do you all think yes or no " operate legally and professional
Tell you what, ask a solicitor see what he`s answer is and if he would back you if it goes wrong, not your insurance company or some RETIRED gent

Ok then so your a registered EN1090 company, what if you need to bring in a subcontractor ? This happens, its far from a joke! In deed the only joke is accepting another law from an unelected non UK government. Its interesting that handrails have now been dropped, wonder what if the industry had stood shoulder to shoulder on this the whole thing might have been chucked out Instead.
I will be talking to a solicitor and my insurer, though I am totally unsure of what solicitor because our own UK government seems to keep falling fowl of European legislation itself and I suspect I will be told "cant tell you".
I do feel sorry for those who have had to take this on though as I doubt it will increase their workload or capacity, even prices are in doubt because it gives the whole of Europe the chance to tender for work here in the UK (were construction is very strong as a sector at present) and in many instances its compulsory to put tenders out Europe wide. Expect to be quoting against the Germans, Poles etc. No longer will you know your competition and as other industry has seen no longer will you be able to compete on equal cost basis. Speak other industry if you think I am talking rubbish

 

[Kent]

I'm meeting a MAS rep tomorrow; I'll ask him.
I would imagine it is yet another rumour that a lot of people really want to believe is true. Why should anyone be exempt?

UK legislation has often allowed "grandfather rights" when new legislation come in. Europe has yet to come up with anything so logical.
We also have clear legislation when an act is debated and agreed the loop holes on all sides are ironed out. Europe and its not even a proper debate

 

[cecotto479]

Ok then so your a registered EN1090 company, what if you need to bring in a subcontractor ? ........UKIP propaganda....

Two points:-

1. A registered company bringing in a subcontractor will cover the subcontractor, I'd expect. In this instance, neither are registered and are seeking to avoid registration/certification.

2. Your unfair competition rant ignores the most glaring unfairness:- that of the UK company who have gone to the trouble and expense of complying with the registration having to compete with people trying to avoid complying.

"Hypocrite" isn't close to covering it.

 

[dunk]

you`ve missed the point, its your neck on the block, its your company that cops it, if YOU knowingly do the work and are NOT reg`d when you should be, forget what the contractor says to you, bullet proof yourself as much as possible
do you honestly think that the contractor who you sub to will not try its hardest to pass the buck if behind bars is the end result if things go so badly wrong
you have said one good thing which is your going to talk to a solicitor + your insurance, how about the dti aswell,
its your business, its you that has to know, ignorance is no excuse,
and as for standing shoulder to shoulder...yeah right.... you go in first the rest will run,

 

[clift_d]

If you are subcontracting for someone and a claim is made against them because of work you have done, then initially their insurance might cover the claim, but you can bet your house on the fact that their insurers will try to recoup the payout from your insurers. They won't want to take the hit in spite of any agreement you think you might have.

If the claim is made against the contractor because of their own work or somebody else's work then you might be able to avoid any action but don't count on it. Particularly if you're knowingly operating outside the law.

 

[Welderpaul]

We are working for 3 of the biggest fabricators in the UK (Excess of 300 men each), taking off their overflow which is all 'CE' EXC3 structural work. We are under no illusions that we are fully responsible for the workmanship (other than design). We have had to supply all our Welder Quals, WPS's, procedures, ITP's etc etc as well as our FPC certs. 2 of them have been to our place to look at the controls we have in place before giving us any work.
Any failure in the structure would land squarely at our door/our insurers door.

Agree you need to 'bullet proof' yourself as far as possible (Which is the same for any aspect in business really)

 

[Kent]

Two points:-

1. A registered company bringing in a subcontractor will cover the subcontractor, I'd expect. In this instance, neither are registered and are seeking to avoid registration/certification.

2. Your unfair competition rant ignores the most glaring unfairness:- that of the UK company who have gone to the trouble and expense of complying with the registration having to compete with people trying to avoid complying.

"Hypocrite" isn't close to covering it.

In using that word you are missing the point, I am talking about it John wayne and son wont

 

[TechnicAl]

Blaming "Europe" is totally misplaced. The grand-daddy of all these standards was our very own MoD (Ministry of Defence). They wanted their ships building to a standard that offered protection to those aboard so they created DEF-STAN standards. BS 5750, ISO 9000 etc were borne out of this and now they have become European EN or International ISO or both.

I believe they are good news for the working man (of which I am one). They help keep the cowboys (and Indians and Chinese and EEs) out of the bidding process thus keeping prices at a level that we need to enjoy life and the pleasantries our country offers. Even if everyone knows the cost cutters and knows their work is substandard it still becomes the starting point for negotiation. These standards help level the playing field in favour of those who are proud of what they do and deserve to make a decent living from their efforts, skill and knowledge.

To be honest Farmers are infamous for being mean (whilst earning themselves a very good income indeed). Its Farmers who tell us that British workers wont work for them when what they really should be saying is that British workers wont put up with the pay and conditions they are offering.
The other culprits are Accountants who simply analyse figures and compare them to last month. They have no idea of investment in people or equipment especially if it creates a short term loss but will benefit in the long run.

The only downside is that there is no-one to enforce these rules, so we have to rely on honesty and the Insurance Companies until a catastrophe happens and scares the corner cutters for a month or two.

Dont blame Europe...........join in and make the most of what it offers.

 

[mike os]

you cannot contract to commit an illegal act and that includes circumventing legislation such as this, any such contract would automatically become nul and void as soon as it hit the court... and in all likelihood they would see it as all parties conspiring to commit a crime and deliberately circumvent legislation you are all aware of, and hammer you both for that as well as any applicable penalties for your actions.

note this is not the same as passing responsibility to a 3rd party such as the designer or manufacturer.... that is just managing the risks, not agreeing to ignore or circumvent them

 

[captain-destructo]

i suspect there are quite a fiew that are not going to get acredited / registered ??
they will just do what 'Grahams Engineers (Seamer) Ltd are doing http://www.lithgowsauctions.com/comingauctiondetails.php?auction_id=719
closeing the doors, on over a hundred years of history down the pan

 

[AndyStobbs]

The system stinks. In 5 years time you will ne able to order a CE marked, documented, papertrailed insurance worthy structure, in kit form from China. There will be nothing that EN1090 registeted firms will be able to do about it.