Use of 220v USA welders in Europe

[canaille]

Hello Everybody !

I am new here, and I come with a good question for you all.
Let me summary a bit the background before :

- I own a old Renault LCV that desperately need some bodywork.
- I own a Mini with light bodywork needed, but roll cage will be welded and so on.
- I love the DIY concept and I always try (you know what I'm talking about, sometimes you don't) to save money by doing stuff myself.

For all those reasons, I need to buy a MIG welder.

Alright then.
I visited and read all mig-welding website (great by the way, far more easy to read than the french equivalent : http://www.soudeur.com/ ) and found this usefull link : http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=661

SIP
...
OVERALL: 5/10

SEALEY
...
OVERALL: 6/10

CEBORA (SNAP-ON)
...
OVERALL: 7/10

CLARKE
...
OVERALL: 8/10

For you American viewers the Lincoln SP170, Millermatic 175 & Hobart Handler 180 ALL have 11/10 in comparison with the above.

Ok ... Well, I live in France, $1 is about 0.74€ so I can get some decent stuff from the USA even with quite expensive P&P charges !

Okay, ebay.com, filter by MIG and 208/240V Electric.
208/240V Electric ?!
Hey, we have 220v (I should say 240) in France, single phase as well !
What is the difference then ?
The Yankees have 220v 60Hz and we froggies have 220v 50Hz.

I emailed Lincoln, Miller and Hobart ... waiting for answers.

Can someone around give me a feedback : will it works on 220v 50Hz single phase current ?


Appreciate your feedback, from what I read here I hope you know the subject.

Couldn't find info here http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2154 as the discussion turned around Chinese stuff more than electrical current.

 

[canaille]

12 views and no answers !
Is it a "bad" question ?


Anyway, I have one piece of information via email :

The Handler 187 can operate on 220V 50Hz but at a reduced duty cycle. Instead of 130A at 30% duty cycle it will be 130A at 20% duty cycle. The other thing to using our unit in Europe would be the availability of replacement parts. You should be able to get most items from a Miller welding distributor since we do not sell any items direct.

This is great !

 

[rtbcomp]

Transformers are more efficient at the higher frequency hence the reduced duty cycle on 50Hz.

Inverter units are not such of a problem because (if I understand it correctly) these units rectify the mains, use the DC to drive a high frequency oscillator the output of which is fed into the transformer. This is why they are so much lighter than conventional types as the transformer is smaller.

 

[canaille]

I wonder about the step by step (am I right about it btw) motor of the feeder.

If it is step by step then no problem, if it is not, it may not work at the normal speed.
If Hobart answered that the welder will work I assume it is ok...

 

[malcolm]

12 views and no answers !
Is it a "bad" question ?
quote]
Don't feel neglected because of page views - they will include non-registed viewers, members who have never imported/exported welders from the USA so might not be able to help, or perhaps even members who have gone away to carry out hours of research on your behalf before posting.

My Miller Syncrowave was designed for 208V but runs fine on 240V. Though that's a very old transformer based TIG. It has a regulator to control voltage on the circuit board.

 

[Justme]

I thought USA was 110 v single phase & 220 v twin phase?

Justme

 

[canaille]

malcolm > no offence, I wasn't feeling deglected at all, it was a kind of funny note before posting what I found on my side

Thanks for your feedback about your Miller, if it works fine for very old TIG welders, it should for recent welders I guess.

Justme : I thought as well, but obviously not. Althought it is very rare.
They always mention "220v SINGLE PHASE" so I beleive it.

 

[shenion]

I thought USA was 110 v single phase & 220 v twin phase?

Justme

It is called 110 but it is usually closer to 120 (mine is 124+).

So, 220 is usually closer to 240.

You will also see references to 117V. That seems to be an average value.

 

[rtbcomp]

I thought USA was 110 v single phase & 220 v twin phase?

Justme

AFAIK it's 110 single phase between line & neutral, 220 v two phase between the two phases which are 180 degrees apart.

 

[canaille]

Some extra information from Hobart :

None of our units are actually tested to 50Hz power. The reason for
recommending the 187 is due to the fact that the overload thermostat is
located in the transformer thus giving it better protection when used on
50Hz. I can not say the same for the larger Ironman units which have
thermostats in the stabilizer and the rectifier.

 

[canaille]

Good morning all,

Some extra information about an old welding machine :
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:L:RTQ:FR:1&viewitem=&item=160122500939&rd=1

I checked with the man that repairs welders at the company I buy my welding supplies from and he said that some of the newer welders will work on both 60Hz and 50Hz. He also said that if it is not labled 50Hz that it probably won't work. This welder was new in 1971 and if I were you I wouldn't chance it. As far as shipping I would need to build a box and do export papers. Add $50.00 US dollars for this service. Good Luck! Thanks J.J.

Looks like Hobard Handler 187 is the one I'm after, now I will have to find a bargain and a guy willing to send it

 

[shenion]

I would look at the Clarke 180 or 210. I put them the same as the low-end Hobart units. There are also 130 and 150 models.

Clarke welders tend to be more international as they are based in Italy. I would check the specs though. They do list 50/60hz.

 

[canaille]

Thanks shenion, though I would like to go for a USA brand, refering to weldequip post I quoted earlier.

One thing by the way : Hobart owners manual are available in english and french ?!
It may be for Canada, but I was hopping ...

 

[Haze]

I dont see why any welder wont work at both 50 and 60hz, even my crappy SIP ( which I have half buried in C20 concrete ) runs at both.

 

[canaille]

Haze : love that king of answer
Now looking for that ONE guy in USA willing to do the paperwork to send a welder...

 

[shenion]

I dont see why any welder wont work at both 50 and 60hz, even my crappy SIP ( which I have half buried in C20 concrete ) runs at both.

Any welder will probably work.

The issue is how well. Most welders have a lower duty cycle when running on 50Hz.

 

[canaille]

I don't mind about the duty cycle, I won't be using it intensively.

I will use it at low Amps to weld bodywork mainly, but I want something easy to use, hence well built, thus USA made.

 

[uau]

200V 50Hz

I called to Lincoln asking exactly same question. The guy said that using 60Hz welder on 50 Hz current is only vent problem, or motoric devices. Nothing else. However, my biggest concern is stability of current in DC welders. I.e. 60 Hz currents peak in 1/120 and 1/60 s, while 50 Hz current peaks every 1/100 and 1/50 s. And ACDC conversion set for 60 Hz may incorrectly pick peaks in 50 Hz current, same as radio station can be picked only at a certain frequency at which it transmits. Noone could confirm or reject this so far

 

[shenion]

And ACDC conversion set for 60 Hz may incorrectly pick peaks in 50 Hz current, same as radio station can be picked only at a certain frequency at which it transmits. Noone could confirm or reject this so far

There is no peak detection. The AC/DC conversion is simple and will work at any frequency.

It is not uncommon to see ACto DC supplies devices that are spec'd from 40 to 800hz (military/aerospace use 400hz). These use the same AC/DC conversion as a welder (but more careful design of transformer part for frequency).

The main thing is the minimum frequency. The lower the frequency the higher the idle currents and the transformer will saturate at a lower current. Usually the core is bigger to handle the increased field.

The units will work, but usually at a reduced capacity. It is hard to say at what level though. That depends on what reaches the limit first: the resistive loss in the wires heating up, the transformer saturating, or the reactor saturating. If the resistive heat losses will cause the current limit, then that is independent of frequency. Inductive saturation is completely non linear, so you cant just say duty cycle or max current will be 50/60th of the specs.

Figure an 18% loss at 50hz. That is what most of the specs on the US welders I have seen spec. Most likely it will be a bit better, but hard to quantify.

 

[uau]

50 Hz

Sure, units will work everytime at somewhat reduced capacity. But again what I was just not sure is whether output DC at 50 Hz will be same linear as at 60 Hz, so I won't end up having high-end unit producing AC quality welds because of oscillating output current (i.e. uneven, weak, difficult to make). But from what you are saying (that ACDC is frequency independent) they should be same linear, right? Thanks for the advice. By the way, Lincoln also sells their models in Europe designed for 50Hz (but 5x as expensive as one can get them in US). I was trying to find out how are these models different from the US ones, but did not get anything that specific as you are saying from Lincoln US tech support.