Toyota steer by wire...

[Kayos]

Nobody is calling for
"Let's smash the machines, we are all dooooomed I tell ya!!!

Let's go back to leaf springs, steering boxes and cross ply tyres

We could bring back polio, diphtheria and mass childhood mortality as well?"

straw man
noun

1. 1.
   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

I haven't intentionally misrepresented anything, the OP posted an article about something new, with a description that it's pointless, the connotation being that older is better and progress is bad

I offered examples where we have made great progress and asked if the OP would like to return to a time of Luddites and older technology, applied to both cars and modern medicine

Not a straw man argument at all

 

[Wildefalcon]

Quite a lot of new vehicles are on leaf springs. They've not gone away, it's good technology, proven, reliable, repairable, inexpensive.

 

[8ob]

What beats me is the madcap advances to make things more complicated when they have yet to perfect the crap that's already out there. The most unreliable thing on a modern motorcar is the electronics, a mate that works for BMW reckons you really don't want to be owning one when it gets to five years old.

Bob

 

[Wildefalcon]

Cheap semi conductors buried deep in every aspect of the car.

 

[MetalMonkey]

I haven't intentionally misrepresented anything, the OP posted an article about something new, with a description that it's pointless, the connotation being that older is better and progress is bad

I didn't see him put any of that in the OP? - he just said it is a solution in search of a problem.
I think you have assumed that criticism of anything new automatically means that everybody is stuck in the past.

I offered examples where we have made great progress and asked if the OP would like to return to a time of Luddites and older technology, applied to both cars and modern medicine

If you want to run with the cordless example - cordless power tools have revolutionised the job site over the last few years, especially the latest generation of brushless tools.
Just compare a new cordless drill to (for example) the old all metal black and decker units of years ago.

While there are the obvious improvements in power, weight and ergonomics - those old drills are simple and cheap to service, not much to go wrong, really only need a set of brushes, maybe a generic trigger switch couple of quid at most.
Switch is built into the controller on a lot of new tools, when it packs it in you are looking at maybe £70 to repair it or £90 for a new drill. Which do you do?

Now nobody in their right mind would suggest going back to using a clunky old gutbuster, with the obvious advancements in technology it is clear progress.
But we have also "progressed" to making something, (at quite some environmental and financial cost) which is essentially disposable for the sake of a few pence of electronics.

There are only a couple of power tool brands which actually sell the individual components to repair their products cost effectively, most of them sell entire assemblies or don't bother with parts at all.
They could. But they don't.

On a £90 tool that is quite annoying. On a £40,000 car that is another thing entirely.


It is quite possible to have advancements in technology which make things better, cheaper, more sustainable, reliable and add value or generally improve things.
This, is not that. This is about production costs and profit IMO.

If this new system’s main USP to customers is to make it feel more like the normal manual steering wheel it replaced, you have to question exactly what the actually advantage to the consumer was in the first place.

 

[dobbslc]

What beats me is the madcap advances to make things more complicated when they have yet to perfect the crap that's already out there. The most unreliable thing on a modern motorcar is the electronics, a mate that works for BMW reckons you really don't want to be owning one when it gets to five years old.

Bob

I wouldn't want a new one!

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

I'm actually pro technology and innovation...but in this case I just can't see a huge benefit vs the perceived down sides....but maybe I'm just wrong! Either way here's my thinking....

1. complete power loss...all steering would I assume be lost?
2. road feedback...when the wheel fell of my Volvo I was aware there was an issue because I could feel the feedback through the steering wheel long before the wheel fell off (it's a long story!)...same for other suspension type issues.
3. Driver not 100% in control of steering...computer systems could (through fault or otherwise) overrule the driver incorrectly (computer viruses?).
4. Fault...what happens if the car causes an accident due to a fault but there's no evidence of the fault having occurred?

I'm sure there are plenty more genuine concerns but the above was enough for me to think it's not a great idea.

I think aircraft fly by wire is a different situation...there are large distances between pilot and control surfaces...it could be argued that fly by wire is a lot safer as there are multiple redundant systems and the mechanical linkages are over longer distances.

Rack and pinion is pretty well proven I think!

 

[Erie Fred]

IIRC the rear steering was only fly by wire:

Autotrader - page unavailable

 

[redlig]

Both mine have the same system but I only feel it's safe to use on quiet motorways!

Issues I've had have been random steering and harsh braking for no reason....often the braking happens if I'm in the middle lane passing something that is just joining the motorway...seems to happen more if theres a curve to the road...it doesn't seem to understand what's happening and thinks we're about to collide with something!

There was one occasion on a roundabout where it did nearly cause a crash....when it decided to do an emergency stop!

I thought for a moment you were describing a person driving . Haven't come very far then despite all the hype.
Ref 5-10 year comment. I was bending the ear of a head of design dept ( I think their remit was bumpers or some such) from japan one day about the lack
of longevity of vehicles .He replied that as long as it lasted the tenure of the first owner ,which seemed to average 3 years ish, they weren't bothered what happened after that.

 

[hotponyshoes]

One advantage of the existing electric power steering is to increase the weight of the steering feel (lower the assistance) at speed. I get a much better feel from my current truck at 100mph than I did from the previous one at 70mph.

On some cars putting them into sports mode makes the steering heavier/sharper.
Basically a speed sensitive adjustable ratio steering rack.
I've got a 7-style car that I'd love to have a f-b-w rack in!

 

[premmington]

Toyota is not the first automaker to put steer-by-wire into a production car. Nissan did it with the Infiniti Q50 nearly 10 years ago

Infiniti's New Steering System Is a Big Step Forward—Unless You Love Cars

Car lovers will howl, but most customers won’t notice or care. That's good for Infiniti.

www.wired.com

Cira... 2014

 

[Morris]

Toyota is not the first automaker to put steer-by-wire into a production car. Nissan did it with the Infiniti Q50 nearly 10 years ago

Infiniti's New Steering System Is a Big Step Forward—Unless You Love Cars

Car lovers will howl, but most customers won’t notice or care. That's good for Infiniti.

www.wired.com

Cira... 2014

From the article
"If Infiniti ever has the guts to go for the lobotomy and strip out the mechanical steering system (it left it in there as a backup), it could cut the car’s weight and boost fuel economy. "
So not the same.

 

[finyuk2005]

dads polaris quad bike has electric assisted power steering..... its absolutely lethal!! there seems to be no variation in assistance level from high speed to low speed.... so reversing at any speed is pretty dodgy!

 

[mart]

Oh no! Progress!!!!

Let's smash the machines, we are all dooooomed I tell ya!!!

Let's go back to leaf springs, steering boxes and cross ply tyres

We could bring back polio, diphtheria and mass childhood mortality as well?

Don't be giving big Pharma more ideas . There are already pharmaceutical companies creating drugs to treat the illnesses that their chemicals caused. Think Pesticides & cancer.

 

[Trevorleach]

I am not sure this will be legal in the UK, I think the ministry get upset at hydraulic steering.

 

[indy4x]

Hydro steer is fine, as long as you can still steer when the pump stops

There are setups that can do that apparently

 

[Red'n'Black]

Last company I worked for were developing an electronically controlled hydraulic spool valve for use on JCBs and the like. We had JCB and several other big players interested, they were even marketing it as dig-by-wire at one point.

Going electronic allowed all sorts of clever tricks that you'd never manage with a pure hydraulic setup. But rather than get something basic working - better efficiency was a big win on its own - they tried to launch it with dozens of fancy modes that were a nightmare to debug. In the end they ran out of startup funding, got bought out by one of the big boys, limped along for a while and eventually shut down.

Anyway one afternoon we were in the pub after work and watching some construction going on out in the car park. There was a guy digging a 5ft deep trench with a backhoe (not one of ours), and another guy stood in the trench beckoning the first one over with the bucket. Trench guy's head was between the bucket and the brick wall behind him, one slip at the controls and he'd have been strawberry jam. We all winced, thinking of the layers and layers of software in the system we were trying to launch and what would happen if you had a glitch at the wrong moment. Yes the guy was breaking all sorts of H&S rules but that was the degree of trust people were used to placing in these things.

You'd hope, by the time something like steer-by-wire or brake-by-wire hits the mass market, that it's been thoroughly debugged. But didn't Toyota themselves have to do a massive recall in the early days of electronic throttles, where the software would jam up and hold them WFO?
Suffice to say I'm not an early adopter of any of this stuff. Once it's been in use for a few years and worked most of the bugs out, if there's a benefit to me in all the extra complexity, sure. But pay through the nose to be a guinea pig? No thanks.

 

[Erie Fred]

Yup ^^^ Inntrinsically safe or whatever you call it, when the controls go dead, what happens ?
I had an electrical engineer friend that worked on the first radio controls for locomotives....he lamented one day
"Fred, do you know there is 4400 hp being held back by a qty (1) electron thick layer of P/N junction."

 

[Farside]

Oh no! Progress!!!!

Let's smash the machines, we are all dooooomed I tell ya!!!

Let's go back to leaf springs, steering boxes and cross ply tyres

We could bring back polio, diphtheria and mass childhood mortality as well?

Bit of a strange hill to die on, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[Bornfree]

Hydro steer is fine, as long as you can still steer when the pump stops

There are setups that can do that apparently

Hydraulic steering with no mechanical connection has been on tractors for 35-40 years. The orbitrol unit that the steering wheel connects to has a built-in pump so if you lose Hydraulic pressure you can still steer, As long as you've got arm's like popeye. But if a hose bursts between the orbitrol and the steering ram you lose steering in one direction which is interesting on the road.