TIG welder - anyone seen these before?

[lexi]

See Pete at least someone is talking sense!

EWM is a very good German brand, they guy you mention is Alan Cautchi, he now works for EWM UK. Good guy.

Its wrong to say that inverter prices are made artificially high by the manufacturers. You get what you pay for, as Pete testify's. I am not saying that people who want to use a welding machine for Occasional use and DIY should go and spend £1000's on top end kit like mine or EWM. But its very unfair to compare the Inverters that are coming out of China now, to the top end Professional stuff that's on the market.

People like us (Lorch) and EWM/Fronius etc are using next generation digital inverters that have a whole host of benefits over the stuff from China.

Maybe it is only a benefit to Industrial/Professional users, who knows! But don't try and say that we've been rumbled because you can now get Tig inverters from China for a 3rd of the price.

They are not the same technology/quality and personally I don't believe that they are reliable/robust enough for Industrial/Professional use. Only for DIY/Occasional use.

Why shouldn`t they have been artificialy high? The price is as much as you can get right........first rule of business? Charge what the market can stand. Since when did big companies become fair and justified. Next you`ll be telling me BOC are charging fair prices for their gas.

Alex

 

[matt1978]

Why shouldn`t they have been artificialy high? The price is as much as you can get right........first rule of business? Charge what the market can stand. Since when did big companies become fair and justified. Next you`ll be telling me BOC are charging fair prices for their gas.

Alex

Yes Darren....Turnover not profit.

I'm all for making a profit, its what makes the world go round, the only reason people go to work etc........

My arguement was that its wrong to compare the Chinese DIY inverters against the top end stuff and say that, "that is how much the top end stuff should be on sale for too" and that we're pis**d off because its now being highlighted. Its just not the case, if your talking about some of the middle/lower end Italian inverters then I would agree, you can get comparable products from China or India, but not if your comparing top end stuff.

 

[snowcat]

On a slightly diffrent note, I have Maylasian made DRO boxes, Which I have bought now 3 sets direct from the maker, The service is excellent, On average scales and boxes take 3 days to arrive and even paying duty still makes them a very cheep alternative, The first set has now been running for 5 years no problems except an iffy lead which was sent out by air mail and arived the next day. Unfortuantly I cant imagine the UK backup to be any better, just worse.

 

[weldequip]

http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Welding/SWP_Cut_40_Plasma_Cutter.html

I'll rest my case on this whole cheap Chinese/top brand comparison debate.
This machine is supplied by one of the UK's largest wholesalers, with a reputation to uphold, strict safety standards & legal requirements to meet.
What chance have you buying direct from China or even via small, UK based dealers selling the stuff on eBay??!
weldequip

 

[irondarren]

Roflmao, actually i should laugh, i have a bad feeling some of the members of the forum my have bought, this machine in its various trims. If anyone has bought a plasma similar to this please beware.
This is one of the main reasons im against the chinese stuff, is i know it doesn't go through the same safety checks as european made stuff.

 

[lexi]

Why buy that anyway? £479 ? I got my Greenbird to the door for £340. 40 amp cutter DC TIG and MMA. Mitec are about the same. Not really fair to compare them all as "Chinese". Some are bound to be better than others.

What might be a more important issue is ..........What will happen when the Chinese move into the Semi pro and Pro markets and offer more serious machines for a lot less dosh.?

Alex

 

[lexi]

Roflmao, actually i should laugh, i have a bad feeling some of the members of the forum my have bought, this machine in its various trims. If anyone has bought a plasma similar to this please beware.
This is one of the main reasons im against the chinese stuff, is i know it doesn't go through the same safety checks as european made stuff.

I think you have every right to be against Chinese stuff Darren. People also have the right to buy it.........and it is there at the right price. It`s like buying a cheap car on Ebay. If you told your dad that there would come a time when you bought summit like a car without seeing it..........he would have laughed yet people do and on just a photo.

That is why people will pay £450 for a box from China. Like you say the machines aren`t breaking enough or word would get round and people wouldn`t touch them

Just think though........if all the big European companies were the only ones who had this technology, how much they could charge for a basic little 160amp inverter? To find the answer look at the basic Italian ones in last two yrs. That`s what the Mitec etc are up against and that`s why they are selling.

Alex





Alex

 

[weldequip]

What might be a more important issue is ..........What will happen when the Chinese move into the Semi pro and Pro markets and offer more serious machines for a lot less dosh.?

I dread to think The market can probably stand a few DIY deaths from "Significant electrical safety concerns", but when the factory boys in Hi-Viz start getting fried the Health & Safety & prosecution Lawyers will have a field day!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

Its not just the extra labour/technology/quality costs etc that the European companies have to build into the cost of the machine.

With the new WEEE regulations and another one which I don't remember the name of (Its the one where certain types of Electrical companants can't be used, because of Cadmium etc levels in it are to high) Reputable manufacturers have to conform to these new regulations and this also costs money. Do you think most of the Chinese factories do?

Its a debate which will run on for some years to come and I will have my opinion and people such as Alex will have his opinion which he is of course entitled to, I just wanted to highlight that its not as clear cut as European manufacturers holding prices artificially high and now they have been rumbled because of the stuff available from China/India.

Just to play devils advocate, as Alex bought up cars, do you think that people like Audi/BMW will go out of business when people don't buy there cars anymore, when they are buying Daewoo and Tata etc?

 

[irondarren]

I think thats the thing alex doesn't grasp the audi/bmw v daewoo/tata, they are all cars, they are all capable of driving from here to scotland and back, but beyond that point they are almost totally different. Audi/BMW have strict working practices rights for workers, holiday pay sickness pay etc, etc. Not so sure about the Daewoo and tata workers, do they get holiday pay sickness pay most likely not. Do they have Health and safety practices as high as european ones, I doubt it. Are Daewoo and Tata have pressures put on them through EEC regulations regarding pollution, no of course they are not, there factories and power stations in the far east are spewing out millions of tonnes of poison into the atomosphere daily, and all for the price of it being a few quid cheaper. If any european manufacturer run factories with such dis-regard for pollution in European they would be fined out of existance by the powers that be. This is all costs added to the price of anything maufactured in the EU, plus of course there is VAT added to the price of anything sold in the EU, something that is Illegally evaded when directly imported from china.

 

[snowcat]

Not strictly true about the work practices ID, The Hyundai plant in korea is fantastic, the whole town is built around the plant, schools and hospitals all payed for by the company, Cars, Construction, ships, It was far better than the german John dear plant, which looks like the dark side of hell to work in, Workers had a real distaste for the place, Daewoo are owned mostly by GM and suzuki, Tata are really loco builders who shouldnt be touching cars and indian not chinese.
Korean stuff is well bolted together, Construction gear gets a hell of a beating and it stands up to it well, There's also trade agrements between JCB and Korean manfactures much of the smaller gear is simply a badgeing job... CAT and all the big players have these little agrements....

 

[weldequip]

I wouldn't have a problem buying Korean stuff, apart from the fact the feckers could well start world war 3 (well they wouldn't start it, the Americans would ) Miller Autoshields... American chopper n all that are made in Korea + Hobart Hoods & Murex Multi-Weld.
weldequip

Edit. Isn't Korea the world's largest ship builder now? when we used to be not so very long ago... yes I do have a problem buying Korean stuff

 

[lexi]

All goods coming to UK pay Vat. It is done at the port and that is that. Regardless of what you think I aint grasping....... Audi/Bmw do not compete with the likes of Hyundai on price for what you get.Also the German quality is not what it was. That is why a friend of mine who is in top management for one of the biggest German concerns in the world got his mind blown away when he flew into Daewoo/Hyundai shipyard by helicopter last year. In his words it was an eye opener. They aint using bamboo scaffold poles now.

It wasn`t that long ago when the Japs did not make any luxury cars. I remember people at the time saying they could never rival Jaguar Mercedes etc...........wrong!

I don`t say Germans will go out of business, but the competition has certainly made there cars a lot more affordable. It`s only a debate guys I only comment on what I see and of course I am interested in what pros have to say. This is the market as it is though is it not?

Alex

 

[matt1978]

I don't have a problem with the Koreans.........well only the North Koreans. In South Korea they like to eat dogs..........but that don't make them bad people. I have eaten a few dogs myself but they looked much better with my beer googles on....... thats another story!!

The point I was trying to make with Cars, was that even tho there are lots of cheaper alternitives available, Audi/BMW/Jaguar/Lexus etc all sell 1000's of cars a year because some people want quality. People pay 5-6k to fly first class, people by Rolex and Breitling even tho a 99p casio will do the same job.

Its true that the Chinese/Indians are taking the value/economy segment by storm......but there will always be a premium segment of the market. Where decisions are made on Quality and performance, not just price. Its the middle ground which is/will be suffering.

 

[Wozzaaah]

I have eaten a few dogs myself but they looked much better with my beer googles on....... thats another story!!
QUOTE]

 

[weldequip]

I have eaten a few dogs myself but they looked much better with my beer googles on....... thats another story!!

Matthew! This is a family friendly forum! (no what you mean though!).

Arn't the Japs now beating the Germans at their own game when it comes to cars? More features, more reliable & less money... just ain't got the 3 pointed star at the end of the bonnet. It's taken them a long time to get there though... 25 years ago they were regarded (and where) s**te!
This is the situation now with the Chinese welders... the vast majority is s**te, but they will get there... in time. The only saving grace for Western manufacturers is (at the moment) they are one step in front with the latest techology.
Prices will inevitably rise on Chinese machines though as they have to comply with international regulations (properly), invest in R&D instead of copying & their workers demand a better standard of 'Western' living.
Japan went through all this decades ago & it is going to take time for China to get there.
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

Regardless of what you think I aint grasping....... Audi/Bmw do not compete with the likes of Hyundai on price for what you get.

Exactly my point, some of the Chinese inverters on Ebay are about as far away from the top end stuff as Audi cars are from Hyundai cars. They are not in the same market segment and don't offer the same thing as products. My point exactly.

Also the German quality is not what it was.

In particular Mercedes went thru a tough time on reliability in the late 90's, so much so that if you own a Merc dating from a certain time, its almost impossible to sell it 2nd hand in Germany because everyone knows about the problems ........why? Because they tried to cut costs and source components from China!

That is why a friend of mine who is in top management for one of the biggest German concerns in the world got his mind blown away when he flew into Daewoo/Hyundai shipyard by helicopter last year. In his words it was an eye opener. They aint using bamboo scaffold poles now.

I never said they was, there is a world of difference between world beating companies such as Daewoo and Hyundai ship building, compared to some of the Chinese factories which are now making electrical goods.

 

[matt1978]

Can't get the hang of the quoting business!!!

 

[snowcat]

Edit. Isn't Korea the world's largest ship builder now? when we used to be not so very long ago... yes I do have a problem buying Korean stuff

Yep, and i think there no 1 in construction, the guys are fanitical about the product, the workers live breath and hobby hyundai.. If you buy a few new diggers (Or know people in high places who have) then you get a visit to the plant, beats the hell out the NH plant at basildump

 

[matt1978]

Yeah a lot of Japanese cars are renowned as being some of the best/reliable in the world. Not just premium brands like Lexus, Honda/Nissan too. But this is as they are now, 30 odd years from the early rust bucket models Datsun etc.

I am not saying that China won't/can't produce equipment to rival top European manufacturers, in 10 years.....maybe, but that is not the case at the moment and thats all I was trying to say. Cheaper prices at the moment because they are inferior products. Thats not to say that the Inferior product won't do everything that a DIYer wants and more.