Synergic welders and overhead welds.

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Since getting it running I have consistently had issues with my synergic welder (Migatronic Rallymig 161i) when welding overhead, especially in thin metals (0.8mm to 1.5mm).

If set to the correct thickness or amperage on the welder it will consistently use too slow a wire feed and too high a current relative to it, causing the weld to hang down, or the wire to go into globular transfer mode (which doesn't work upside down) and constant fouling of the nozzle is an issue.

If you set it intentionally high, it will generally get ok penetration and go in ok, but even a tiny increase in arc length will cause it to suddenly increase current disproportionately high and burn through.

I'm unsure if this is something that can be easily solved with specific settings and I'm just not thinking about it correctly, or if it would be a case of developing a new program for overhead and loading it onto the welder with the SD card.

My much older synergic welder (a KME550) offers very granular manual control or fine tuning of all parameters via a bewildering array of knobs on the power supply, so I haven't faced this issue with it all.

 

[lynx85]

I own rallymig 161i and use it mostly for car bodywork. I found it really easy for car panel thickness to use 0,6mm wire. I set mostly 43-50A range and don't look for wire speed or voltage. No problems with overhead at all. Can't run continuous bead with 0,6mm thick metal, but 0,8mm and thicker - no problem at all. With 0,8mm wire I can comfortably work with 1mm and thicker (overhead, too). No need to tweak parameters outside synergyc defaults.
I use cheapest wire rolls locally available and pure CO2 gas. Never had any problems to blow holes or sagging welds.

 

[PhillipM]

I usually just set my Parweld a few tenths thinner on the thickness and move slower.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I own rallymig 161i and use it mostly for car bodywork. I found it really easy for car panel thickness to use 0,6mm wire. I set mostly 43-50A range and don't look for wire speed or voltage. No problems with overhead at all. Can't run continuous bead with 0,6mm thick metal, but 0,8mm and thicker - no problem at all. With 0,8mm wire I can comfortably work with 1mm and thicker (overhead, too). No need to tweak parameters outside synergyc defaults.
I use cheapest wire rolls locally available and pure CO2 gas. Never had any problems to blow holes or sagging welds.

I don't usually use 0.6mm, but do have a reel and some tips, so might be worth trying.

I find the synergic function with 0.8mm wire is ok for 1mm up if the fit-up is perfect, but struggles with even small gaps... Above 2mm it's great even with imperfect fitting.

I also use Argoshield Light rather than pure CO2, which might actually matter a lot here...

CO2 is always CO2, but Migatronic being Danish probably qualified it with 95-5 or 82-18 Ar-CO2, without the oxygen in British tri-mixes which increases puddle liquidity.

I usually just set my Parweld a few tenths thinner on the thickness and move slower.

If I weld slower I tend to see the welds slump before the metal really gets driven into the joint...

Generally I prefer to run overhead hot and fast with similar settings to flat position and a really tight arc.

 

[lynx85]

Well, as I said, for car bodywork and similar thickness 0,6mm wire is ideal. Synergyc parameters allow to use 0,6mm wire up to 3,2mm material thickness iirc. Actually, in my experience, with 0,6mm wire it is so easy that I just don't do fit up - if it is 2mm gap or smaller I'm good to go. Even overhead.
I really suggest to use 0,6mm wire. Have no comment about shielding gas, I never used anything but CO2.

 

[Munkul]

it will consistently use too slow a wire feed and too high a current relative to it,

Current is set by wire feed speed, they are not independent variables unless using a pulse MIG. I think you mean voltage (and therefore arc length)

If you want a good setting for uphill/overhead then you usually set it down quite a bit compared to the "correct" thickness since the "correct" thickness is usually for a flat position T joint fillet weld which needs far more heat.

IE if I'm welding 6mm, then use the 6mm setting for a flat fillet weld, but turn down to 4 or less for the same fillet but uphill. Or similar for an outside corner joint.

It applies maybe more on bigger welders where above 180-200 amps or the 8-10mm setting you're in spray transfer. For that same uphill weld you STILL need to be in dip transfer so say 130-140 amps which is probably a 4mm setting.

Basically, go off amps and arc length, not the synergic thickness number, for anything that isn't a flat fillet.

If it's going globular it's probably too much voltage, turn the arc length trim down.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Well, as I said, for car bodywork and similar thickness 0,6mm wire is ideal.

I will give it a go, it certainly can't make things worse!!!

Current is set by wire feed speed, they are not independent variables unless using a pulse MIG. I think you mean voltage (and therefore arc length)

It is a pulse-mig unit with no option to switch that aspect off, so it varies the relationship between current and wire feed based on the tables loaded on the SD card.

It's obvious when it's forcing the current too high relative to wire feed, as it starts behaving like globular or even spray transfer and burning the wire back almost to the tip even when trimming the arc length to try to correct for that with the voltage adjustment.

It does it in other positions too at thinner thicknesses but it's easier to adjust your welding to account for it as you don't have to hold as tight an arc, or depend on your wire feed rate to help you fight gravity.

If it's going globular it's probably too much voltage, turn the arc length trim down

Still does it with the arc trimmed turned all the way down.

The more I write here the more I wonder if there's actually something going on in the software side...

Perhaps I need to download the most up to date settings from Migatronic and re-flash the machine, just to check that isn't the issue before I go much further.

If you want a good setting for uphill/overhead then you usually set it down quite a bit compared to the "correct" thickness since the "correct" thickness is usually for a flat position T joint fillet weld which needs far more heat

This is possibly down to inexperience with thin metal, but generally for overhead I have always had best success running at the same wire feed as I'd use to get good penetration with dip transfer in flat or horizontal position, but turning the voltage down a smidge to let me hold a tighter arc, then keeping movement speed as high as those settings will support, with the wire at the leading edge of the puddle.

But that's all based on my experience with 3mm to 5mm single pass, and thicker multi-pass welds.

Vertical I would tend to turn the wire feed down a little to account for the movement speed penalty of the vertical up motion, and push the voltage as high as I can whilst staying in dip transfer.

Basically, go off amps and arc length, not the synergic thickness number, for anything that isn't a flat fillet.

That's easy enough done, although i'm not 100% sure how it handles that...

On my big welder that would lock the amperage in, and vary the wire speed based on an entirely different table to the one it uses when configured with the thickness settings or wire feed settings.

I have a suspicion that on this welder, "Thickness", Amps and Wire Speed are just three different ways for it to display the same single internal parameter to the user.

 

[Munkul]

I have a suspicion that on this welder, "Thickness", Amps and Wire Speed are just three different ways for it to display the same single internal parameter to the user.

Ah I see... I didn't realise it was a pulse mig unit. Not ideal for overhead or uphill on steel then. Better in dip transfer IMO.
Yeah you're right, those are just 3 different ways to display the same setting to the user.
I'm surprised that you can't swith out of pulse to just standard CV. Pulse is just too hot sometimes, it's always going to be hotter than dip.

 

[lynx85]

My rallymig is 5-6 years old and I never updated software, but I can definitely say there is no pulse settings. You are correct that "Thickness", Amps and Wire Speed are just three different ways for it to display the same single internal parameter. Basically, all you need to know is wire speed and voltage, if you want to go over synergyc and do manually input parameters.
maybe reset all to synergyc defaults (all at zeroes or middle or whatever) and try that?

 

[tom2207]

Ah I see... I didn't realise it was a pulse mig unit. Not ideal for overhead or uphill on steel then. Better in dip transfer IMO.
Yeah you're right, those are just 3 different ways to display the same setting to the user.
I'm surprised that you can't swith out of pulse to just standard CV. Pulse is just too hot sometimes, it's always going to be hotter than dip.

dont think they are pulse .

 

[Munkul]

dont think they are pulse .

I did wonder, but I didn't want to contradict the OP since I've never used a rallymig before.
In that case I think he needs to go away and read his user manual a bit better.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

dont think they are pulse .

In which case:

• I have conflated two of the different welders I have, and should probably go find the manual for the Rallymig.

• There's definitely something weird going on for it to be doing what it's doing, as a non-pulse mig shouldn't behave like that.

if you want to go over synergyc and do manually input parameters.
maybe reset all to synergyc defaults (all at zeroes or middle or whatever) and try that?

It had the main board replaced recently, and there are apparently two versions of said board, changed a couple of years into manufacturing.

It might be that it's now on the newer board, but was old enough to have originally had the firsts version and the software wasn't updated when the board was changed.

In any case I don't think there's an over-ride to let you force a specific wire feed and voltage manually, just the trim function.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

In that case I think he needs to go away and read his user manual a bit better.

Snap!

I have conflated two of the different welders I have, and should probably go find the manual for the Rallymig.

It not being a pulse unit actually makes the behaviour more mystifying.

Having read the manual now (all 4 pages) there's a wire feed calibration setting that's probably worth checking as well as the software version.

 

[Munkul]

In which case:

• I have conflated two of the different welders I have, and should probably go find the manual for the Rallymig.

• There's definitely something weird going on for it to be doing what it's doing, as a non-pulse mig shouldn't behave like that.


It had the main board replaced recently, and there are apparently two versions of said board, changed a couple of years into manufacturing.

It might be that it's now on the newer board, but was old enough to have originally had the firsts version and the software wasn't updated when the board was changed.

In any case I don't think there's an over-ride to let you force a specific wire feed and voltage manually, just the trim function.

Between the wire feed and trim functions, that IS adjusting it manually...

 

[lynx85]

I can set wire speed and THEN adjust voltage +-9,9V on both sides from synergy setting, without changing wire speed. Don't know if we call it trim or whatever, but it is adjustable manually. Right side button besides led screen does that.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Between the wire feed and trim functions, that IS adjusting it manually...

I see what you're saying, but the trim function only gives a manufacturer determined range of adjustment, and crucially it doesn't tell you what you're actually setting the voltage to (which would allow me to compare with settings I would expect to work from experience), so you're still reliant on the program getting it about right to begin with.

The fact that at a low wire-feed/amp/thickness settings it's unable to hold a short arc without disintegrating the wire in mid-air even with the trim fully turned down seems really off.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I can set wire speed and THEN adjust voltage +-9,9V on both sides from synergy setting, without changing wire speed. Don't know if we call it trim or whatever, but it is adjustable manually. Right side button besides led screen does that.

The only way a straight ±9.9V adjustment would make sense was if every program defaulted to something like 23V.

Otherwise at the lowest setting turning trim fully down would result something like 4-7V whilst turning it fully up would result in 22-25V, both of which would be almost inoperable at 20A.

 

[Munkul]

I see what you're saying, but the trim function only gives a manufacturer determined range of adjustment, and crucially it doesn't tell you what you're actually setting the voltage to (which would allow me to compare with settings I would expect to work from experience), so you're still reliant on the program getting it about right to begin with.

The fact that at a low wire-feed/amp/thickness settings it's unable to hold a short arc without disintegrating the wire in mid-air even with the trim fully turned down seems really off.

You can only go so far down with the amps before the wire size starts making a real difference. E.g 1mm wire works well down to about 60 amps, then below that it starts burning in an unstable condition - probably the "globular" transfer you mention.
I say that because usually you'll be well above 100 amps to get true globular transfer.

Some welders are better at low amps than others... I'd expect that rallymig to be great though, they're designed for bodywork... Should run lovely around 40 amps on 0.8 wire and argoshield.

Maybe you have a wire feed issue... Is it smooth? Is the gun tip a new one?

 

[Pete.]

In which case:

• I have conflated two of the different welders I have, and should probably go find the manual for the Rallymig.

• There's definitely something weird going on for it to be doing what it's doing, as a non-pulse mig shouldn't behave like that.


It had the main board replaced recently, and there are apparently two versions of said board, changed a couple of years into manufacturing.

It might be that it's now on the newer board, but was old enough to have originally had the firsts version and the software wasn't updated when the board was changed.

In any case I don't think there's an over-ride to let you force a specific wire feed and voltage manually, just the trim function.

Yes there are two main blards a v1 and v2. Theres a few subtle differences i.e one has an led where the other doesnt from memory. Theres also more than one button board which is the bit that went wrong on mine.

 

[lynx85]

"The only way a straight ±9.9V adjustment would make sense was if every program defaulted to something like 23V."

I'm just saying what presented parameters are. Of course, if I tried to use all +-9,9V adjustment range, then at the opposite ends it would likely weld like sh*t, but tweaking potential is still there, if you need it. And if you press that right side button to tweak voltage, then machine shows actual voltage during welding. No need to guess, just look at it in the screen. You can compare with industry tables or whatever information you have and adjust accordingly - left button for wire speed, right for voltage. At least, my machine can do that. Lower button is for burnback or something like that, but I rarely touch that. (maybe this is your "trim" you adjust all the time?)
And I have to agree with Munkul, rallymig is great for bodywork and thin metal panels. When I started mig after 15 years of stick only, it felt like cheating, like glue gun. No matter how good fit up, no matter what position, I could weld it all. And all of that with factory synergyc settings, most of the time. That's my experience.