Seeping moisture through rust converter

[Chris Stevens]

Hi JF, I weld up and fabricate a lot of classics and make a very good living out of it. Prevention is no help to me as I don't own any of the vehicles and I know all that stuff but I'm at the receiving end of people's repairs when it's drastic. It's at this point I need to chat with similar classic repairers like my self and compare the characteristics of other chemicals tried by others. No one in the right mind would cut out 90% of the internal box section steel just because it's got heavy surface rust as its just not do-able when it still retains a lot of strength.
So ideally I want to ask other professional repairers to see what they use and why, characteristics of what they use and long term progress.

If you are a professional tradesman involved in weld repairs on classics, then surely you shouldnt need advice from others about effective rust prevention, as while a cheap bodge job to get an MOT obviously isnt something that requires time and effort put into rust prevention, I feel its something that is part and parcel of the job if you are repairing valuable collectible vehicles?

 

[dannyp]

obviously a bodger if a " profesional " and useing krust as it dont work overly well certanly no where near good enough for professional use

 

[Bluemotion]

If you are a professional tradesman involved in weld repairs on classics, then surely you shouldnt need advice from others about effective rust prevention, as while a cheap bodge job to get an MOT obviously isnt something that requires time and effort put into rust prevention, I feel its something that is part and parcel of the job if you are repairing valuable collectible vehicles?

One can never know it all no matter what field they're in

 

[Bluemotion]

obviously a bodger if a " profesional " and useing krust as it dont work overly well certanly no where near good enough for professional use

Don't estimate others from just forums please

 

[Bluemotion]

I've always wondered what the "bleeding" of moisture out of a newly descaled bit of rusty steel is caused by. I'm sure it's not condensation, the blobs are too spherical and too haphazard, like they've been forced out of the steel.

The only thing I can come up with is perhaps descaling the surface opens up fresh steel to the elements that can rapidly start up the rusting process. Then, any cavities containing water quickly rust and as the rust takes up double (treble?) the space of the original steel, the water in them is forced out of any pores..... maybe.

If that is the process that's going on, I guess you've got to try to fully open up the pores and cavities of the metal, get whatever chemical treatment you can in there and then somehow dry it out before painting. Short of sandblasting, I'm not sure what would do this. Maybe an acid application that eats both rust and steel followed by a "wash" of something neutral - water perhaps, followed by a spell in a very warm place. Pretty tough on a vehicle.

^^ a lot of conjecture there.

We've the same fascinations I see johnser. Most people didn't get what I was trying to explain but obviously you can see it.

 

[Chris Stevens]

One can never know it all no matter what field they're in

My point was that if you are repairing valuable classic cars, surely rust prevention after carrying out the work is as important as the work being carried out properly in the first place? Not sure I would want to pay for costly repair work, and then find out the repairer uses DIY products such as Kurust............

 

[anjum]

It may be due to the fact that Kurust and other rust converters are water soluble so there's a certain amount of water in there already plus a damp atmosphere.

I don't mind helping Professionals, they have to learn somewhere. They are not the font of all knowledge, as some of them would have you believe.
But seriously, a professional is another name for someone who has to make a living in that field and meet the customers requirements and budget.
As you know some customers won't pay for some work that we consider as "essential" unless you run a high end classic car restoration firm (I invite you to look at some of their prices). It's the same in every field e.g. welding, wiring plumbing etc.

 

[Bluemotion]

My point was that if you are repairing valuable classic cars, surely rust prevention after carrying out the work is as important as the work being carried out properly in the first place? Not sure I would want to pay for costly repair work, and then find out the repairer uses DIY products such as Kurust............

The thing is Chris, these jobs are hands on and you learn as you go along. I do work on all sorts and there are companies out there that say this and quote that are just talking with rose tint glasses on. These finished restored cars can never match an original unrestored car. There is no way on this earth one could unpick every minute panel, sandblast, prime and re-assemble. Ive worked for a few restoration workshops over the years and they all work very simular and its all guesswork.
The other problem is unlike plumbers, heating engineers, electricians, and other trades where help and info is at hand and are ten a penny on every street there may be only one vehicle restorer in amongst them who has to learn the only way, the hard way.
I work freelance and one of my customers repairs new ferraris, bentleys and astons, he has a diploma in restoration and knows jack sh+t. I do all his metalwork and handform panels. I have come across lots of people like him and paperwork just cant match hands on. Its awful to say but after spending loads on costly repairs its better to get a new shell and lose the originality.

 

[Gareth J]

Of course you could. It's far from impossible.

It would take time and skill, which would be expensive if you're paying for it...

In fact, the more a vehicle can claim 'classic' status the easier it is - the older it is the more likely it was put together by hand.

Quite possible to exceed the original if done very well.

But to be fair to the chap, the market needs all type of restorers. Many folk can't afford a full, ground up restoration from a garage with blasting/dipping capabilities and just want to slow the death of their classic on British roads for a few more years.

 

[Gareth J]

These are my own observations...

Someone who exceeds original specifications isn't restoring, like the tractors at shows with perfectly straight panels and smooth paint - almost remanufactured.

A restoration is to return the subject to it's original condition - if that means stripping panels out then so be it, it's a restoration.

Anything less than that is a repair. This means 99% of restorers are actually repairers. Deal with it.

Under that, bodgers - I think we've all seen their work

Semantics but yea, those definitions make sense. Getting something back to "Original" can be impossible though, there has to be some overlap

 

[Chris Stevens]

The thing is Chris, these jobs are hands on and you learn as you go along. I do work on all sorts and there are companies out there that say this and quote that are just talking with rose tint glasses on. These finished restored cars can never match an original unrestored car. There is no way on this earth one could unpick every minute panel, sandblast, prime and re-assemble. Ive worked for a few restoration workshops over the years and they all work very simular and its all guesswork.
The other problem is unlike plumbers, heating engineers, electricians, and other trades where help and info is at hand and are ten a penny on every street there may be only one vehicle restorer in amongst them who has to learn the only way, the hard way.
I work freelance and one of my customers repairs new ferraris, bentleys and astons, he has a diploma in restoration and knows jack sh+t. I do all his metalwork and handform panels. I have come across lots of people like him and paperwork just cant match hands on. Its awful to say but after spending loads on costly repairs its better to get a new shell and lose the originality.

Of course.................I can see exactly where you are coming from. But find it curious you are using a DIY market product such as Kurust, which seems to me very poor? Dinitrol products are a good deal better, and their RC900 rust converter/primer is perfect for restoration work.

 

[Chris Stevens]

It may be due to the fact that Kurust and other rust converters are water soluble so there's a certain amount of water in there already plus a damp atmosphere.

I don't mind helping Professionals, they have to learn somewhere. They are not the font of all knowledge, as some of them would have you believe.
But seriously, a professional is another name for someone who has to make a living in that field and meet the customers requirements and budget.
As you know some customers won't pay for some work that we consider as "essential" unless you run a high end classic car restoration firm (I invite you to look at some of their prices). It's the same in every field e.g. welding, wiring plumbing etc.

Dinitrol RC900 rust converter/primer is epoxy based, and far superior to cheap DIY market water based products.

 

[keithski122]

I don't have any problem with bluemotions post, there are many different ways of doing a job and other people opinions are worth taking into consideration whether you are professional or diy.I do auto upholstery and often learn from other people different ways of doing things, maybe better maybe worse.
I also work on lots of classic cars, some diy fixed, some professionally as yet I don't think I've ever come across one thats been fully restored, most people think a bit of welding and a glossy coat of paint is restored.
One to think about(especially britsh cars) if something is restored should it include all the poor design and mistakes of manufacture or should things be improved, to my mind I would prefer a car to be improved.

 

[Bluemotion]

I don't have any problem with bluemotions post, there are many different ways of doing a job and other people opinions are worth taking into consideration whether you are professional or diy.I do auto upholstery and often learn from other people different ways of doing things, maybe better maybe worse.
I also work on lots of classic cars, some diy fixed, some professionally as yet I don't think I've ever come across one thats been fully restored, most people think a bit of welding and a glossy coat of paint is restored.
One to think about(especially britsh cars) if something is restored should it include all the poor design and mistakes of manufacture or should things be improved, to my mind I would prefer a car to be improved.

Keith, that's very honestly said and sometimes it needs another hands-on craftsman to see the bigger picture.

 

[GRW]

Big fan of Vactan rust treatment. When I first got my ex-AA T4 van in 2007 there was a small area on the body under the drivers door that had clearly had the paint worn away with boot contact and was rusting. I ground the rust back to bare metal and applied Vactan, which turned the metal a blue-black.

Being a lazy sod I didn't do any further treatment to it until late 2014 when the van went in for some touch up respray work. I asked the guys if that area had deteriorated at all and they said it was still 100% solid. So it works, and works well.

I've used Vactan, & overprinted it with Bilt Hamber Electrox. Seems to work well (I must get some more, I'm running low after doing the OH's Kia Rio rear subframe this week)

 

[Smallfry]

Holy thread resurrection Batman !

 

[Robotstar5]

Holy thread resurrection Batman !

Good clue it's a spammer, they have now left the building