Rivet Rivet

[hotrodder]

Pretty much all been said but yeah, pop riveting is kinda like doing the 'hoovering'. Pop rivets are blind rivets but blind rivets aren't necessarily pop rivets. Some flavours of structural blind rivets are not fun (or even easy) to pull with hand tools in sizes that are breeze with cheap pop rivets.

Just throwing an idea out there as this about cosmetics as much as a way of attaching an ally skin... traditional solid rivets. Off the top of my head i would have thought it'd be easier to get things looking right 'scale wise' as we're talking about a model about 1.2m long. Example of mushroom head solid rivets...

From memory they're 1/8" stem and the heads are tiny relative to cheap pop rivets of comparable style/size. They're available down to 1/32" stem dia and in as many head styles and materials as decent blind rivets. If there's no access to buck them properly (or you can't be arsed) can bond 'em in place.

 

[chunkolini]

Bidbadbugga that looks like the place.
hotrodder, I had wondered about using these, but I would not be able to hit them with anything as the model would be too delicate.
I reckon the blind ones with a concealed end will probably do the job.
It is amazing how many types of rivet there are.

 

[echosierra3]

Check out the Experimental Aircraft Association, EAA. They have a multitude of online tutorials and sources for supply. Might even have a UK branch as well. ED

 

[KemppiFrog]

The UK equivelent of the EEA is the Popular Flying Association

A thought. There are small 'drive pins' IIRR about 1/8", round head, like a rivit, but with a styrated(sp) stem. The ridges are raised in a spiral and hardened. So when tapped into an 1/8" hole, they hold well. Mostly used to fit ally name plates to steel tube. Would not need the force of a rivit, has a blind hole and looks right from the outside. Any use? Only downside is they are plated steel, if that matters.
KF

'Pop' is the name used by George Tucker & Co.

 

[hotrodder]

The force needed to buck small solid ally rivets is tiny. The ones in the pic aren't bucked properly, they were dipped into some epoxy and just squeezed with a pair of pliers (with a bit of softwood to protect the factory head) before the entire thing was stuck to the car with some posh double sided tape.

I get that they're a PITA compared to blind rivets, i suggested them because i reckon you might struggle to find blind rivets smaller than 1/8 stem, definately will smaller than 3/32. For the picture i have in my head i'm thinking they'll look too big and 1/16 or smaller will work better scale wise. Various styles available down to 1/32 shank for imperial, 1mm for metric... http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/solid.htm For countersunk rivets that translates to head diameters as small as 1.5mm - 2mm

If you want a few of the mushroom headed type in the pic to play with PM me an address and i'll post you some.

 

[chunkolini]

Kemppifrog they sound interesting.
There will be no real load on them, just holding the wings on an airliner.
Can you link to a source or image of them.

 

[pedrobedro]

Get some 4043 tig rod and cut it into pieces, it's so soft it will only need tapping lightly to hold it in place.

 

[chunkolini]

An interesting idea, but I am after the heads of the rivets to link into the aeronautical 'thing'.

 

[hotrodder]

Get some 4043 tig rod and cut it into pieces, it's so soft it will only need tapping lightly to hold it in place.

The blind rivets i've been talking about are 1050 aluminium (at least down to 3/32) and are even softer than 4043

 

[Robotstar5]

I think I will a selection as I wont have any idea of what I am doing until I start. Once, that is the customer gives me the go ahead, but he seemd pretty cool with the idea.

I think if you contact somewhere like Avdel telling them what you are doing, they will probabley send you a selection FOC

 

[troppo]

G`day Chunko
Sounds like a great project, the problem i can see is the scale of the rivets compared to the scale of the plane. Personally i`d bond the skin and then run some tape over the lines you want to rivet, partially drill the holes (with maybe a 1/64 drill bit) where you need them and then fill the holes with a metalic silver filler. Remove the tape before the filler goes off and then using really find sand paper get the head of the 'rivets' flush with the skin. a quick polish and you`d have a line of 'rivets' just where you need then that would be a lot closer to scale. Sealed rivets can not be pulled through a hole part way through material as the whole shank comes out leaving you with a river with a dirty big hole in it.
Cheers mate
Troppo

 

[oddbob]

This is a fascinating thread ...those 'drive pins' sound mega useful.

I'm always in the need of fixings that look miniature on different bits and pieces, and my standbys usually are 2.5mm or 3mm machine screws ...allen pan heads look just like small pop rivets and if your not putting a paint finish on the work, they'll look indistinguishable from the aluminium. It's also possible to cut a thread of that size in 1mm (or less) sheet with it holding without any problem.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Chunkolini, Sorry, we used them when I was building trailers, waaaay back. Drive pins is the best I can call them. I will have a look tomorrow on t'net. Just sounded a possibility for a non structural faux wing on a steel bar frame. Otherwise, solid ally rivets with a buck (not anvil!) which could be a long bit of solid bar from the open end of the wing, and use a pneumatic riveter. The rapid blows need less of a back up to the rivet. At the hanger, I hollowed out the cut off end of a cheap air chisel as a tool. Worked fine, and no comment from the CAA surveyor. Did a complete rebuild of a Twin Comanche tail area. The more difficult rivets that I drilled out were explosive fixing. A sort of pop rivet that was fixed by a very small fulminate charge in the rear. A tap on the pin fired it and flared the inner end. When one drilled them out, there was a strong smell of ammonia. We replaced with solid, hence the small guy squeezed into the tail.
Nother thought, use ally rivets with a spot of Loktite into a blind hole. (superglue??)
KF

Re the comments about scale: Not possible to do that, but visible rivets on a sculpture are part of the visual?

 

[chunkolini]

Nice idea troppo.
It is indeed a potentially interesting project. Fingers crossed.
the bit about scale has been avoided. That was why I first turned the job down.
"I am a sculptor not a model maker" He actually liked that. I thought I had escaped!
Once we established that he is after an artistic representation of the subject I got excited.

Here is a quote from my pitch to him
"As I am looking at the drawings I keep thinking it might be interesting to give it a slightly more organic or almost animorphic look, more swooping curves on the wings, a hint of slitty eyes (like the lights on some modern cars) on the cockpit windows. A subtle effect; curves not corners what do you think of this as an idea? I keep being reminded of whale and dinosaur skeletons be I will save that idea for later."

Will he rise to my bait? I love the idea of making HR Geigerish hell vehicles, blue whale like airliners, anamorphic assault choppers etc. Who knows maybe the reps for the arms companies will be liking my style? Then it becomes a game of morals.

Thius is a great part of my job. Somebody says 'can you make me this' my first thought is usually 'No' then I think about it.
I get a whole pile of new ideas, 2 out of three of them never come back. I get some interesting jobs and some great ideas.

 

[troppo]

Nice idea troppo.
It is indeed a potentially interesting project. Fingers crossed.
the bit about scale has been avoided. That was why I first turned the job down.
"I am a sculptor not a model maker" He actually liked that. I thought I had escaped!
Once we established that he is after an artistic representation of the subject I got excited.

Here is a quote from my pitch to him
"As I am looking at the drawings I keep thinking it might be interesting to give it a slightly more organic or almost animorphic look, more swooping curves on the wings, a hint of slitty eyes (like the lights on some modern cars) on the cockpit windows. A subtle effect; curves not corners what do you think of this as an idea? I keep being reminded of whale and dinosaur skeletons be I will save that idea for later."

Will he rise to my bait? I love the idea of making HR Geigerish hell vehicles, anamorphic assault choppers etc. Who knows maybe the reps for the arms companies will be liking my style? Then it becomes a game of morals.

I can imagine some of the 'artistic' things going through your head, give it eagle claws instead of wheels on the landing gear,and an open beak at the front. Lets see lots of pics mate i`m fascinated by some of your work

 

[oddbob]

http://www.spirol.com/company/products/prod_d.php?ID=53
...drive pins?

 

[Shox Dr]

"I am a sculptor not a model maker" !

...and you shouldn't forget that, not that you would.


Do you draw/scribble/doodle ideas before you start? or is it as it comes in yer heed

 

[chunkolini]

Do I draw scribble ideas before starting work?
I work mostly out of my head
Let me rephrase that. I dont work from drawings I make it up as I go along.
I usually go for a bike ride and trundle along prattling out loud to myself as I refine the ideas, once I have about 1/3 of a project worked out I am happy to start.
I cant draw for a toffee and have missed out out on a few good jobs because of this, very frustrating, I can do scale drawings or plans of simple structures but I cant sketch a 3D sculpture to save my life.

When I am looking for ideas to refine a project I spend ages using google images, a very useful resource. I will stick pictures up in the workshop and use them to pick out lines etc as I am working.

I know a few other arty types who work in three dimensions and none of us can draw, it seems to quite a common one. Odd that.

 

[Shox Dr]

I work mostly out of my head

Christ I wish I had your head, there's never enough space in my workshop

 

[chunkolini]

It is a vast empty space.