Reducing Energy Bills

[GW8IZR]

My stepfather in law, if there is such a thing, at the age of 88, spent somewhere around £18,000 on solar panels with a payback period of about 15 to 20 years. He just made his 90th birthday. That was a good investment wasn't it!

Is he interested in the process or technology? maybe he isn't looking at the savings - dunno sometimes its about doing something than what its costing.

But I agree, a lot of people ( wind generators on farms are my bugbear ) get sucked into things not understanding the business case

 

[Cobbler]

Is he interested in the process or technology? maybe he isn't looking at the savings - dunno sometimes its about doing something than what its costing.

No he was just stupid! Intelligent but stupid. (& dead at 90)

But I agree, a lot of people ( wind generators on farms are my bugbear ) get sucked into things not understanding the business case

when they were going to build a wind turbine near us, they had an "open day" to tell all about it. I asked about how long it took to recover the energy that was used to make it. I was told that was irrevellant. I sad no it wasn't & kept asking. I was virtually chucked out & they refused to answer anymore questions from me. Anyone local would know the firm I'm talking about, but will not mention any names for obvious reasons

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I asked about how long it took to recover the energy that was used to make it. I was told that was irrevellant. I sad no it wasn't & kept asking. I was virtually chucked out & they refused to answer anymore questions from me. Anyone local would know the firm I'm talking about, but will not mention any names for obvious reasons

Aye, they don't like it up 'em [apologies to Cpl Jones ]

 

[Gareth J]

when they were going to build a wind turbine near us, they had an "open day" to tell all about it. I asked about how long it took to recover the energy that was used to make it. I was told that was irrevellant. I sad no it wasn't & kept asking. I was virtually chucked out & they refused to answer anymore questions from me. Anyone local would know the firm I'm talking about, but will not mention any names for obvious reasons

I was wondering about this as you posed the question and it's one I'd not thought about before.

A quick Google suggests that depending on size, embodied energy paybacks can be as low as a couple months for large ones or back to a year or so for ~100kw ones.

This article gives a nice round up;
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...sUkUU1hAyEzRjuUZQ&sig2=VbLhNYtR2hKymqJzVSh9WQ

The following quote summarises nicely;
"Thus, the total CO2eq
emissions resulting from a 2 MW turbine were 907.4 t, which results in 7.59 gCO2
eq/kWh [11]. However, if the simulation were altered so that none of the materials are recycled, the total CO2eq more than doubles to 2074 t, resulting in 17.35 gCO2
eq/kWh."

For comparison, coal stations run at about 915gCO2/kWh and gas turbines at ~450gCO2/kWh
( http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmenergy/523/52305.htm )

The open day people ought to have known their figures but I don't think those paybacks are anything to be concerned over. Rather favourable compared to nuclear I'd imagine.

Sorry for the slight topic deviation, thought it was interesting though

 

[Cobbler]

This was the first turbine there'd done so I don't suppose they knew, but admit it, rather than try to browbeat their way through. I just laughed at them.

Edit. The trouble with a lot of these companies, they think you should accept everything they tell you without question.

 

[james butler]

my mum managed to get free solar panels through the goverment scheme a few years ago which seems to have halved the leccy bill
im waiting for the solar water heaters next, as theyre supposed to save you loads on your gas bill by preheating the cold water supply to the boiler, so instead of having to turn the thermostat down to save pennies the incoming water supply is preheated so saving in essentially the same way by reducing the boilers workload.

 

[brightspark]

wind turbines are great daughter is working on the large ones offshore near Germany . big ££££ there a waste of money but she don't care

 

[Cobbler]

wind turbines are great daughter is working on the large ones offshore near Germany . big ££££ there a waste of money but she don't care

Tell her to keep taking it. Make money while the sun shines as they say (or the wind blows more like)

 

[wookie]

But I agree, a lot of people ( wind generators on farms are my bugbear ) get sucked into things not understanding the business case

I'm not surprised you feel like this, a lot of the farms I've been to on Anglesey had them installed and a few of them weren't happy that the deal they are left with wasn't what they had been lead to believe.

 

[GW8IZR]

I'm not surprised you feel like this, a lot of the farms I've been to on Anglesey had them installed and a few of them weren't happy that the deal they are left with wasn't what they had been lead to believe.

Same as some of the solar panel installations were sold on the basis of what they would deliver if it never went dark.

The small generators are the least effective and just wait til they start coming down, the big ones at least get a bit of an inspection every so often. The small ones will never get looked at 'til they are on the ground ready for going to the scrap man.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

Same as some of the solar panel installations were sold on the basis of what they would deliver if it never went dark.

The small generators are the least effective and just wait til they start coming down, the big ones at least get a bit of an inspection every so often. The small ones will never get looked at 'til they are on the ground ready for going to the scrap man.

We had a 4Kw solar array installed in June 2012 and last month we broke even, the FIT payments and the energy produced and consumed matching our initial outlay. They estimated a payback time of 5 years but we have shortened that by 8 months.

 

[GW8IZR]

We had a 4Kw solar array installed in June 2012 and last month we broke even, the FIT payments and the energy produced and consumed matching our initial outlay. They estimated a payback time of 5 years but we have shortened that by 8 months.

Thats fairly close to the prediction then, New panels seem to have improved significantly in the last couple of years and are not experiencing the efficiency fall off that some report. A friend in Hungary is currently building a large system that he projects being his only source of income required in three years. Part of the installation is a large mirror and central 'cell' that does the generation using a turbine.

I reckon the best setup for me at the moment is one of the 'new' water manifold systems and I think I may import one early next year. I need a fairly small setup to achieve what I need here.

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

 

[GW8IZR]

(deleted) misunderstanding :-)

 

[james butler]

do solar panels become in efficient over time then? i thought it took 20 years for them to become noticeably inefficient?
i know the inverter technology the panels are connected to is pretty bad as mine has to be serviced every 5 years to check its efficiency as its the first thing to go.

 

[GW8IZR]

PV collectors are a bit too new to have real data , Some of the longest service lifes in the UK are only just over ten years. Now manufacturers claim a percentage degradation over a period of time and ALT speculation talks in terms of 25 years and 20% .. but its speculation. Something manufactured recently may well be OK. Some data suggests the first couple of years is when most of the degradation occurs. Anyway when you look at the payback term of circa 30 years (ignoring artificially raised FIT) then that circa 1% per year probably matters.

That info comes from studies on panels made by reputable manufacturers, who can say what the budget end of the market is like?

I think based on what I can glean, for small scale systems in the UK, water heating is more practical.

I'm sure others will have different views.

 

[Mee]

Dale, THEY used the terms commercial and business tariff which is why I have reiterated the point about not getting hung up on terminology.

Spoken to our coordinator about it and read some of the paperwork and in my opinion they should maybe used the word RATE instead.

 

[daleyd]

OK, rather than speculate here are actual links, not just words, to just a few articles on business/commercial energy rates and the differences between domestic and commercial. At the end of the day anyone can say "I spoke to my adviser/coordinator/Warren Buffet" but really without any proof it's all just talk. None of this really matters of course, if you are indeed on a commercial tariff (Even though it's not, but they just happened to call it that??) then bully for you. What people shouldn't do though is read your advise and think that they have the possibility to get on one, because they probably won't. Collective switching is not necessarily a bad idea, but I think some of your advise in the first instance is misleading, and some just plain wrong.

https://www.switchmybusiness.com/en...en-commercial-energy-rates-and-domestic-rates

http://www.businessjuice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Domestic-vs.-Business-Energy-PDF.pdf

 

[Justme]

Our panels have been installed now for about 6 or 7 years. They still produce in excess of their rated power.

 

[cumbriasteve]

I would be interested in the views of members with solar panels, our rear roof faces the sun nearly all day (when we have it) and we have just had it retiled a couple of years ago so it is nice and wind and water tight, suppose I have a fear of ruining that.

Viewing it as more beneficial than bank interest rates, or should I say the lack of bank interest rates.

We do live in an area known at times for it's strong winter winds, a few of the houses have them but I have never managed to watch them being fitted and I have a proven fear of rubbish workmanship these days unless I can keep a beady eye on them.

So some questions if you can spare the time to answer.

1. Roughly how much (standard semi)
2. How secure are they, wind damage.
3. What is the risk of their fittings causing leaks through the roof from driving rain.
4. Any annual maintenance costs
5. How effective, truth and not sales pitch.
6. If you have them, would you do it again now you know what they are like.
7. Surely they don't provide any heat support during the winter months.

I would rather have answers from real people than salesmen

Thanks folks