powder coating, flowers and bolts

[chunkolini]

Right.
It looks I have got the job of making a life sized runner covered in daffodils for Marie Curie cancer Trust.
a computer generated concept thingy

A big hasslesome job. so a human figure covered in daffodils.
Plan A get the body made in this style, then weld short threaded stems all over the shop for the daffs

then get it powder coated green/
meanwhile make the 470 daffs like this. But get them laser cut. This is a lash up to get an idea of what I need .
Big thanks to forum member #Ichris for finding powder coater and laserpeople locally.

Weld M8 nuts on the backs of the flowers and get them powder coated yellow.
These will be done on a frame with M8 bolts welded onto it so a bulk process.
The actual process will probably be like this. Tack nut onto back of flower, screw stem into nut, weld stem onto body ad infinitum. Remove flowers, screw onto frames and get both lots coated. and reassemble

Issues? how hard to screw the flowers onto the studs after coating? will the powder coat need masking off? 500 of the suckers or will I be able to muscle the nuts on?
I have worked out a way of attaching a die onto a cordless drill or screwdriver handle to tidy threads if necessary
Studs? I dont fancy using threaded bar. 500 bits to cut with threads to dress on each one and thread visible on the length of the stem. Messy. I think use bolts. The ones with most of the length not threaded (they must have a name). and just chop the ends off; I can give this job to a young mate. Chop, bend, chop, bend ad infinitum.
A good source for 1000 bolts and 500 nuts?
This promises to be a bunch of fun
But hey Shedman in Wales seems to have triumphed over the Production Companies in London.

 

[Bullet2012]

just wondering what will stop the light fingered brigade from unscrewing the flowers for little keepsakes.

 

[Agroshield]

Why M8?

The reason I ask is that a rivnut in the flower might be quicker than welding the nut on.

With some thinking, it might be possible to set the rivnut with a flypress.

The reason I would go smaller diameter (M6) is the lower force to set the nut.

Loctite the flowers to the studs to stop the thieves.

If you are buying studs in quantity, you can buy pre-cut and deburred lengths.

A set screw is fully threaded. A bolt is only partially threaded.

A piece of tube coated green and slipped over the male thread would remove the need to trim a bolt. Just cut the tube to the correct length so the male threads end up in the correct place/length when the flower is screwed on. That also means you do not need to take care (in the sense of stopping in a particular place) when cleaning up the threads with the die.

The way to find out if a nut will screw onto a powder-coated male thread is to try it.

If you go the tube route above, a cap on the end of the male thread might protect the threads from the coating.

For the powder coating frame for the flowers, use 250 pieces of studding, welded midpoint and screw a flower on each end.

Off the wall idea: replace your metric fasteners above with 1/8" BSP items and use a pipe nipple as the flower stem.

Another idea: could you redesign the flower as an unrolled item i.e. one piece (so the join between the petals and the corona is at the base of the corona)? Then you can roll it up and bend the petals out (or bend the petals out and roll it up). Could be less work than tack welding 500 coronas onto 500 petals. But then securing the flower to the stem is more difficult. Perhaps a circular female threaded bung that is a tight fit inside the corona, tack welded in.

Yet more thoughts: if you stay with the two-piece flower, use a flypress and dies to put the set into the petals. On the same theme, could the corona be laser cut on a tube laser? Then a wedge can be stuffed up it (on the same flypress) to set the top out before welding the two together.

 

[julianf]

How long will it be outside for (if at all?)

Those powdercoated edges will, surely, fail / rust / look bad / make you look bad quickly?

 

[Agroshield]

Those powdercoated edges will surely fail...

For my education, would it be possible to powdercoat on top of galvanise?

How may extra daffs would be needed as a sacrifice in the bottom of the plater's tank?

 

[julianf]

For my education, would it be possible to powdercoat on top of galvanise?

How may extra daffs would be needed as a sacrifice in the bottom of the plater's tank?

Yes.

Zing burns/melts at 4somthing
Powder is at 1somthing

but... it would be a bunch of labor dealing with that many threads before / after dipping
i dont have much experience with it, but, sometimes, ive managed to seal them with washers so as its been a tap with a hammer, and done, and sometimes, its been tedious

 

[bricol]

Your M8 nut will not screw onto an powder coated stud - simply mask them off - your chosen powder coaters will be able to, or tell you want to do.

You can buy weld studs (mild or stainless) - stick 'em on with a stud welder, or a couple of tacks with a MIG.

And surely you don't need that many tacks to hold the daff together - a tack each side?

 

[Agroshield]

...simply mask them off

The challenge is the quantity. There are around 500 items. So 500 lots of masking and then unmasking. There's lots of options, we just have to find the most efficient way among them.

Masking tape - manual apply and manual remove.
Screw on a nut (chance of it moving - maybe a dome nut) - could be done with a powertool in both directions
Powdercoat the threads and clean with a die - could be done with a powertool
Cap the threads - manual apply and manual remove but maybe less work than the tape
Others?

The success or failure of the entire project rests on finding efficient way to carry out the repetitive tasks. The stud welder is a great idea for this. The longest M8 weld stud I could find is 50/55mm. Do you know of anything longer (if required)? In a similar way, (spot) weld nuts for the flowers might be quicker than MIG. It all depends on the economics - machine purchase or hire vs time saved.

 

[bricol]

The challenge is the quantity. There are around 500 items. So 500 lots of masking and then unmasking. There's lots of options, we just have to find the most efficient way among them.

Masking tape - manual apply and manual remove.
Screw on a nut (chance of it moving - maybe a dome nut) - could be done with a powertool in both directions
Powdercoat the threads and clean with a die - could be done with a powertool
Cap the threads - manual apply and manual remove but maybe less work than the tape
Others?

The success or failure of the entire project rests on finding efficient way to carry out the repetitive tasks. The stud welder is a great idea for this. The longest M8 weld stud I could find is 50/55mm. Do you know of anything longer (if required)? In a similar way, (spot) weld nuts for the flowers might be quicker than MIG. It all depends on the economics - machine purchase or hire vs time saved.

Talk to your powder coater - we simply push silicon cover/inserts over or into threads - they reuse them.

 

[rtcosic]

Obviously, I'm missing something, but if the flowers are going to be as densely packed as in the image, then no-one will see the details of the armature body underneath.

Dumb Question no 1. Just weld on the 500 flowers, then galvanise and powder coat yellow in one operation.
Dumb Question No2. Why the complex armature or body? Panel-beaten sheet metal for speed, strength and simplicity?

 

[julianf]

Dumb Question no 1. Just weld on the 500 flowers, then galvanise and powder coat yellow in one operation.

I thought that, and i think its a consideration, however, the zinc will pool and / or there will be air pockets. I doubt somthing like that would just dip simply.

But, yep, i think that would be the best way to look at the job - unless its just to be indoor?

 

[Turbo]

My local powdercoater doesn't like applying it over fresh galvanised because it doesn't stick well.
He always likes to give stuff a light blasting to roughen the surface.

 

[chunkolini]

some useful comments here.
First up.
No studs I dont want excess thread showing and I can chop bolts off at different lengths.
Rivnuts? holes in the base of the flowers and three/four tiny tacks takes a few seconds
Loctite? yep. or that sticky stuff CT1?
Nuts and powder coating? I'll make a small sample section and get that done first to see what I will be dealing with
two piece flower? roll the trumpet (ill be buying it by the meter) on a length into larger circles, crop to the right length and roll around a tube or use my metalcraft tool to press them into a round.
Shape the flowers? either use a flypress or be brutal; after fitting the two halves together put a metal ball on top and crack it with a hammer to splay the top out then sit the flat back on a ring and pop the inside with the end of a bar to raise the petals. Maybe try both operations at once with the option of further violence to give that randomness.
M8 nuts? easier to weld than M6 they can easily get damaged by tacking
The finish? the powder coater has suggested some fancy primer first (cant remember what he called it), it will only be outside for a few days then move indoors.
Screw on a nut before coating? top idea filed away for later
Silicone covers? Ill ask him. the thought of 500 bits of masking tape makes me want to cry.
the image was an AI generated thing, they want some understructure visible to make it a proper piece of art.
Panel beaten sheet metal? I'd be quicker doing it this way. Someone at home suggested an armature of bars filled with mesh. Naaah.
Two colours are needed.
my first idea was make the whole thing and powder coat it green then paint the flowers by hand, then I painted one flower by hand. Stuff that.
but I can call in some artygirls to help touch up the flowers to give a bit of shading etc

 

[MoreWellie]

weld nuts should be cheaper and no coating to worry about when welding
use low tensile plain steel bolts for the same reason
for the powder coating could you mask the threads by putting ordinary nuts on the threads and whizz them off afterwards
never had powder coat done but how will you hold the flowers whilst they are being coated? some sort of array of bolts?

 

[Gareth J]

Maybe you could just screw bolts into the welded on nuts for the powder coating. Give the powdercoaters something to hold/hang from and when you unscrew them afterwards, the threads will be clear.

 

[Ton-up]

I had some yellow powder coating done s a couple of years ago, the same as your daffs, on some steel temporary sign frames. It was ok for the job it was doing, but looked thin in places along edges and corners. This may have been bad powder coating or just the colour.
I see on your daffodil flower, the corners of the sheet steel is showing thin too. I know its a close up pic but I think the flower parts would benefit from tumbling or similar to round the edges. This would also have the bonus of helping to stop the powder coat splitting along the corner, letting in moisture and rusting.