NO SUCH THING AS GREEN ELECTRIC TRANSPORT... FACT.

[mtt.tr]

They ONLY reason the scrappage fiascos exist is so manufacturers can sell more cars. Trading in your car for a new greener model every few years is the WORST thing you can do for pollution levels, bearing in mind cradle to grave environmental impact, but most people already understand this is all about money, not ‘saving the planet’.

Evernody but the occasional lunatic, that is....

View attachment 214131

We are working on an oil field



All industries around the world have terrible pictures of you look for them

The upside to lithium production is that the places with the biggest quantities are remote such as deserts where almost no life forms exist, cant say that about oil

 

[8ob]

The real problem is: Population growth and consumption of everything.

The most ecological thing you can do as a medium sized mammal is stop breeding - have fewer children.

We have in the UK - slowed down the birth rate - it is 1.7 - globally it is still 2.4 kids per couple.

Those figures probably dont account for the numbers fished out of the English Channel every day, either way I am sure the .7 loss is made up elsewhere. Its all a merry go round, us old gits are living longer and need nippers out there paying into the system to keep us, without the numbers we would all be taxed to death, hang on!


Bob

 

[mtt.tr]

Facts are tricky little blighters to nail down. They might be supported by data, but are they supported by ALL the data? They might be based on factual evidence but is the resulting conclusion fact or opinion? Conclusions are always interpretations of evidence, does the conclusion weigh all of the evidence or does it cherry pick from evidence which only supports the conclusion?

I think the bottom line is that all of these knee jerk reactions to "the climate change emergency" are attempting to address vastly complex problems which might not even have a solution. My own opinion is that it takes a certain amount of energy to perform a certain task, be that moving people around, heating homes or powering tellies. All energy comes from the Sun one way or another and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

If you need a given amount of energy to perform a task, the chances are you'll be generating a given amount of pollution. Try to subvert the process by cleverly manipulating the energy chain and you just end up moving the problem somewhere else. Either the pollution is displaced from where the energy is needed (power stations, electric vehicles) or pollution is created locally (ICE, wood burning stoves). Similarly that energy can be "clean" by being sucked directly out of the Sun, wind or waves but those generators need constructing which costs energy and the "clean" power they deliver still requires transporting and/or storing.

No such thing as a free lunch.

One downside to this observation if, like me, you want to carry on driving petrol vehicles and performing pagan bonfire rituals, one undeniable "fact" is that massively populated city centres are choking their occupants to death. That does mean there is a benefit to moving the source of pollution away from the point of use for that energy. But again, even "clean" battery powered energy isn't actually clean when it comes to EV's. They still vent their brake dust into the atmosphere and scrub their tyres on the roads, they're still choking people to death.

The only answer is to stop using so much energy in the first place. That's where Extinction rebellion comes in and this thread gets locked...

The bit youve missed is efficiency, big power stations are massively more efficient about up to over 60% small scale local production such as combustion engine about 20-30%

 

[mike os]

there is no "green" transport... the only change is where the pollution is produced.... given the materials needed for ev i wonder where the real environmental impact point actually is compared to ice. everyone bangs on about co2, but there is more to it than that


while ev are a great idea for high density areas they are and will probably always be impractical in the real world. Hybrids will be the next dieselgate.... totally unreliable claims outside the test centre

 

[Morrisman]

there is no "green" transport... the only change is where the pollution is produced.... given the materials needed for ev i wonder where the real environmental impact point actually is compared to ice. everyone bangs on about co2, but there is more to it than that


while ev are a great idea for high density areas they are and will probably always be impractical in the real world. Hybrids will be the next dieselgate.... totally unreliable claims outside the test centre

The new Toyota hybrid, never needs charging. So how does it claim to be green then? I’d wager it is more expensive to produce, and less green, than any similar sized petrol engine car.

I hear they use regenerative braking to put a little boost back into the battery, but on a long motorway run there’s not much braking going on.

It supposedly uses ‘surplus power’ to charge the battery..... surplus from where? Alternators don’t produce power for free, they consume engine power, fuel, to turn and put out charge.

 

[Morrisman]

The only answer is to stop using so much energy in the first place. That's where Extinction rebellion comes in and this thread gets locked...

Be nice if we simply stopped using so much of everything. The amount we humans consume is horrendous, and the waste we spew out is disgusting. Overpopulation is the biggest problem the planet faces. Electric cars are irrelevant, if the human virus continues to grow and fester all over the planet at the rate it is now.

If the U.K. disappeared overnight, sank beneath the sea, I doubt the general/average pollution and environmental levels of the earth would change by any measurable amount, so small are we compared to the combined mass of China, India, USA and Asian emissions. 65 million, out of 7 billion, yet we seem to be the more hysterically enthusiastic country when it comes to ‘greening’ the world.

 

[Morrisman]

A small electric car would be ideal for me, 95% of my motoring is in town, short trips, 3 mile round trip, then back to home, private drive, charging point would be easy to set up.

 

[northwest]

Be nice if we simply stopped using so much of everything.

The only way that is going to happen is if we (humans) are not here. Whether you like it or not, we are greedy with an acute sense of survival.

 

[Morrisman]

The only way that is going to happen is if we (humans) are not here. Whether you like it or not, we are greedy with an acute sense of survival.

Moderation is the key. We don’t actually need to throw away 60% of the countries food production, which is what we do nowadays, and we don’t need massive neon lit advertising hoardings glowing all night, even when 90% of the population is in bed. We don’t need foreign holidays every year. We don’t need a car that can do 150mph or more, and we certainly don’t need a new car every two years, so that five year old, perfectly good vehicles are sold for peanuts or scrapped etc etc.

Like you say, we are greedy, and we are brainwashed to believe that growth, expansion, improvement, is absolutely necessary, the news reports it as a failure if we as a country don’t have increased production and GDP all year round.

To paraphrase a movie we all know....

“....an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables - slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy s**t we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war... Our great depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars, but we won't. We're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pi***d off”

 

[Screwdriver]

The bit youve missed is efficiency, big power stations are massively more efficient about up to over 60% small scale local production such as combustion engine about 20-30%

I have missed out a LOT of stuff.

But 60% compared to 30% of what? It's all very well having more efficient power in a generating station 100 miles away but I need it here and it needs to be transportable. OK stick it into a battery, so then I need to dig up some additional material, manufacture it into a battery, pump energy into that before I can use it, dispose of the waste etc. etc.

 

[8ob]

Moderation is the key. We don’t actually need to throw away 60% of the countries food production, which is what we do nowadays, and we don’t need massive neon lit advertising hoardings glowing all night, even when 90% of the population is in bed. We don’t need foreign holidays every year. We don’t need a car that can do 150mph or more, and we certainly don’t need a new car every two years, so that five year old, perfectly good vehicles are sold for peanuts or scrapped etc etc.

There`s the rub, the world does not sleep. For humans its crawling 24/7, people get up late and mess about all night. Simple life changes would make a huge difference.I can remember the days when the roads were deserted after 9pm.

Bob

 

[mtt.tr]

I have missed out a LOT of stuff.

But 60% compared to 30% of what? It's all very well having more efficient power in a generating station 100 miles away but I need it here and it needs to be transportable. OK stick it into a battery, so then I need to dig up some additional material, manufacture it into a battery, pump energy into that before I can use it, dispose of the waste etc. etc.

Well that argument wipes petrol out further if you also include transportation and refinement.
Those are being used efficiency not whole life cycle

 

[ukracer]

Studies show over the life of an ev car it produces far far less emmision including production, plus battery production and charging. Than the comparable petrol or diesel.

Everyone harps on about power station emmisions but dont consider the overall emmisions off petrol or diesel
Pulled from the ground, either shipped or piped then refined stored then transported by diesel truck to then be used at about 40% efficiency.



I think the biggest problem will be the undersized under improved grid

Where are these studies though. Most things I hear seem to back up the physics of loosing energy every stage you introduce. This is without the where do we charge issues......just imagine charging in a terraced street......tripping over the 3 cables coming from every house...

 

[Morrisman]

There`s the rub, the world does not sleep. For humans its crawling 24/7, people get up late and mess about all night. Simple life changes would make a huge difference.I can remember the days when the roads were deserted after 9pm.

Bob

But does the world really need the sort of massive glitzy neon lighting that we see glowing all night long? Someone is milking the last advertising minute out of it, while others are campaigning to have the stand-by facility banned from TV’s to save a few fractions of a watt of electric.

And office blocks in big cities, empty, but every light still on all night long, to look pretty?

The wastage is horrendous, but accepted.

 

[slimjim]

The new Toyota hybrid, never needs charging. So how does it claim to be green then? I’d wager it is more expensive to produce, and less green, than any similar sized petrol engine car.

I hear they use regenerative braking to put a little boost back into the battery, but on a long motorway run there’s not much braking going on.

It supposedly uses ‘surplus power’ to charge the battery..... surplus from where? Alternators don’t produce power for free, they consume engine power, fuel, to turn and put out charge.

The new self charging hybrids, are just the old self charging hybrids, like the Prius, and my Auris hybrid, that needed a new name to make them sound cool,

It’s just an electric motor connected to a petrol engine, with a small bank of batteries to recover any energy not used to drive the car, braking for instance, it doesn’t matter on the motorway, because engines are most efficient on motorways, and very inefficient in towns, it’s just a way of increasing the efficiency, but it’s not new, it’s just Toyota sales blurb to make it sound new.

 

[Morrisman]

The real problem is: Population growth and consumption of everything.

The most ecological thing you can do as a medium sized mammal is stop breeding - have fewer children.

We have in the UK - slowed down the birth rate - it is 1.7 - globally it is still 2.4 kids per couple.

Makes me wonder why there is such a massive need for new houses, new roads, more shops etc, if the population is indeed not growing.

I’ve done my bit, only had one child.

 

[slimjim]

A small electric car would be ideal for me, 95% of my motoring is in town, short trips, 3 mile round trip, then back to home, private drive, charging point would be easy to set up.

And me, I even have the charging point,

When I last changed cars they didn’t have enough range, so I bought a Toyota Auris hybrid, next car will be electric, they now just do enough range, for my occasional long journey, but I do about 14 miles a day usually

 

[Screwdriver]

Well that argument wipes petrol out further if you also include transportation and refinement.
Those are being used efficiency not whole life cycle

Yes of course it does. The entire argument hinges around what you do and don't include in your argument. There is no simple answer same as there is no simple argument. Battery powered vehicles are not head and shoulders above ICE, it's not a night and day difference. I seem to recall reading that EV's are worse than ICE in terms of overall "well to wheel" pollution for at least the first 5-8 years after which of course, you're relying on a 5-8 year old battery to score smug points.

The only thing you can say for certain is that pollution in city centres is a problem, EV is a solution. Zoom out to the effect on climate change and it is in my opinion just an excuse to manufacture and sell more product.

 

[slimjim]

Where are these studies though. Most things I hear seem to back up the physics of loosing energy every stage you introduce. This is without the where do we charge issues......just imagine charging in a terraced street......tripping over the 3 cables coming from every house...

I bet the first car owners moaned that they had to visit the chemist to buy petrol, who had to order it in days or weeks in advance, but guess what, that problem was solved.

 

[Gareth J]

if the human virus continues to grow and fester all over the planet at the rate it is now.

It won't continue to grow at current rates. It's a misconception. As pointed out in this thread above, global birthrates are on a downward trend and fast approaching the 2.1 babies per woman "replacement rate". I also mentioned the concept in the other thread, yet still the insatiable population boom myth pervades.

The main reason the population is growing at the moment is because less people die young, from all manner of poverty related problems, which, ironically also probably helps reduce birthrates.

We could think of manmade climate change as one of the costs of better humanitarian conditions globally. We've wasted a shocking amount, whizzing virtually free energy up the wall but it's not all doom and gloom!