Mma vertical down 6013

  1. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    Ok another learning question.
    I'm fairly good with Mig, occasionally I come across situations where I only have a stick weld set and some 6013's.
    I've been practicing with my messer picotig 140 and some easystrike 2.5mm 6013 rods on some 1/8" steel tread plate, horizontal no probs, vertical I start off good, but after 3" or so my weld goes all squiffy, lack of fusion & inclusion.
    I tried cooling the work, no diffo, tried lowering the current a little (from 80a to 70 - 75a), but then I get sticking, I've tried practicing maintaining my angle (45 degrees), I dont think thats the issue.
    Any pointers?
     
  2. davidjohnperry a different breed

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    What rod you using some won't run down hand also most stick rods are not designed to run down hand. But then saying that I think one or two ppl have been successful in doing this
     
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  3. davidjohnperry a different breed

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    Could try running hotter but u may get a hole form
     
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  4. zeppelin builder

    zeppelin builder Member

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    Make sure the rods are rutile /cellulose type ie suitable for v down
    Bohler ohv a good one
    Id crank the current up a bit and move quicker too
     
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  5. Richard.

    Richard. Forum Supporter

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    My first question is why down?
    The rod might be capable but does the application need to be down.
    Cels are primarily a down hand rod because of there fast freeze deep penetration characteristics usually in an open root.
    Rutiles will run down if needed but the benefits of good fusion and penetration and reinforcement tend to go down with it. The main reason to run a rutile down hand would be with thinner sheet gages where going up would likely blow it away. Going down is much faster and likely to allow you to stitch up thin sheet.
    So do you need to go down?
     
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  6. zzr1200

    zzr1200 Working at 650 ft on open steel work

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    45 degrees?

    Is the joint a corner weld, 45 degrees to disect the 90 angle and about 80 degrees in the direction of travel (hold the rod almost horizontal).

    If its a butt joint 90 degrees to the surfaces and a rod angle of 80 degrees to the joint direction (10 degrees below horizontal) and lower your amps, and weld upwards.

    Or try 2 mm rods at 45/55amps with a very short arc
     
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  7. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    The rods are rutile.
    I want to weld down as a 'welder' told me these rods are only good for going down hand.
    Also I have some rods that state vertical down, these do work well, so its more a case of me not knowing the rod than being able to do it, or at least I hope.
    Welding horiz I usually have a steep angle, to blow the slag away as 6013's do tend to be fluid, I'll try 80 degrees vertical.
    In fact I'm going to try that right now.

    Edit: Yes much better, vertical down with the 6013 I can get a good looking slightly convex weld over the full rod with a 10 degree angle, its hard on my gloves though.
    I did find something else, the messer isnt working right, set to 80 a theres almost no power I have to set it to 120 amps to burn the rod, I did the above with a 160 amp buzzbox set to 85a and Ac being a buzzbox, I'm not good enough yet to weld up, I'd use 7018's for that anyway, thanks all.
     
  8. Paul.

    Paul. Moderator Staff Member

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    Downhand is not vertical down, its flat, If you want to run some 6013's vertical down try some Oerlicon fincord m, done loads of outside corners on 1.5mm sheet with them in the past, with a bit of practice you can get a nice flat weld that needs no finishing
     
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  9. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    Ok so I need to get my terminology right.
    Downhand is with the rod pointing down at the ground and the weld going up, am I correct.
    So what I'm doing is uphand going down as the rod is pointing at the sky and I'm welding downhill.
    Anyway in the past 20 minutes I've improved a lot, and want my messer rig servicing.
     
  10. 8ob

    8ob Forum Supporter

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    Pretty much a universal rod, there is not much you wont be able to weld with a 6013, as suggested above crank up the amps and work back from that.

    Bob
     
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  11. Richard.

    Richard. Forum Supporter

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    That’s a top point Paul.
    Down hand is in the gravity position. I used the wrong term myself in my own post :doh:
    I don’t think I’ve heard of a 6013 that is only good for down hand or vertical down.
    @Dr pepper
    Paul’s example of welding vertical down is perfect because it’s thin sheet and the only practical way to weld it MMA is V down. Do not adopt a v down weld as a replacement for a v up because it looks better or is easier. If the gage your welding will cope with going up always go up.
     
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  12. zzr1200

    zzr1200 Working at 650 ft on open steel work

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  13. Brad93

    Brad93 M J B Engineering

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    As said Bohler OHV or Esab OK 46.44

    Both suitable for vertical down. Getting good penetration right at the root is bloody difficult and you need to travel quickly with a short arc.

    I done a procedure for the welding of tanks (pressure vessel) in the vertical down position, 6mm plate, lap joint with a nice square edge.

    Rods were ESAB OK 46.44 3.2mm.
     
  14. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    Thanks guys.
    I often get whatever the maintenance department has at the time, 6013's seem to be everywhere, some places have 6010, and 7018 but here in the Uk 6013's are common.
    I guess I could carry a box of rods with me, more space I havent got, my local weld supplies stocks oerlikon.
    I've been practicing a little, a few dozen rods, I can get a reasonable weld most the time going downhill with the rod pointing up using a curse of E's motion, passing quickly on the lower side, and passing slower over the top side applying very slight pressure to burn in, I havent tried cutting polishing & etching a joint yet, but it 'feels' Ok, and when I get it right it looks Ok.
    The main thing is now I either get it looking Ok, and if I dont I know why even before I chip off, so with practice I'll get better.
     
  15. davidjohnperry a different breed

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    Here is some v down 7010 my inverter is not really man enough for a 4mm 7010 but I'll do some better stuff just pulled my transformer welder out or I'll use a engine drive
     
    • IMG_20180406_120338.jpg
  16. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    I've never run 7010, 7018 yes and I'd like to get some 7014.
    I can now get reasonable looking vertical welds.
    Also I now have some oerlikon 6013's.
    I tested the messer picotig by shorting the output and monitoring the current with a Dc clamp meter, below 60a its fine, above 100a its fine, around 80a midrange it plays up, I think theres grinding dust or something in the current control.
    Also I did some mig yesterday, that has improved too, practicing stick improves your mig!
     
  17. What you are doing is vertical down, if you travel in the other direction you are going vertical up. As stated above downhand is welding in the flat position
     
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  18. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    Ok thanks.
    After some more practice with better rods I'm realizing where I'm going wrong.
    It looks as though after all it is the rod angle, as the rod shortens its more & more tricky to see the angle, I tried pulling the rod away while welding & keeping the angle a few times and theres a point where it suddenly changes, your body naturally wants to change the angle once you get 1/2 way between man boobs & belly button (while stood up).
    Might switch out the electrode holder, my other machine has one of those old skool ones that has the side spring thing you press to release the rod, that I can see while arced up.
    Also might cut a slot in a piece of plate & pratice shoving the electrode through the slot & inwards, then I can do so without the helmet (without power of course).
     
  19. Richard.

    Richard. Forum Supporter

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    Can you weld in the flat position?
    1G, PA, downhand etc what ever you want to call it, are you able to weld in this position?
    It’s where you start before going vertical.
    I think you need to not worry about this vertical down lark. It’s something your not really going to apply to a job unless it’s an open root with a cel or thin plate and your stuck with that process.
    You would be far better off learning to go up. General fab with rutile and low hyd rods on decent gages are put in going up. It’s a sounder weld by a long way.
    Unless your stoving in a cel by going down your not really learning much in the way of common useful positional welding. Say you learn to get it to flow, and you like the visual appearance of the v down weld. What next? Do you apply it to work where a v up weld would be applicable. Learn in the flat then start your journey learning to go up.
     
  20. Dr pepper Member

    Messages:
    199
    lancashire - uk
    I should say at this point that when I used the oerlikon rods things improved a lot, most likely down to the rods being better quality.

    Yes I can get a good weld every time in position and horizontal.

    Ok point taken, I was under the impression that down was easier than going up, I wasnt looking to be a 'pro' welder, just to be able to throw brackets & simple light stuff together and 'look' nice.
     
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